On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:53:24 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:10:58 -0800, "Calif Bill"

wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:42:18 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:29:59 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:20:49 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:33:34 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:25?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing

Talk to middle and high school teachers about NCLB and see what
they
say about the system.

It's a total disaster. ?And in states that require mainstreaming of
those children who are developmentally, physically, mentally or
emotionally "challenged", it's almost impossible to achieve the
standards required by NCLB.


Both of my kids are teaching in the classroom. My son (HS Social
Studies) as a career and my daughter (MS Science) as a step toward
eventually becoming a school administrator.

The have been some positive aspects of the NCLB. For instance,
teachers must demonstrate a level of expertise in the subjec they
teach. The schools can't simply hire a guy because he's a great
football coach and then say, "Oh, yeah...and you'll be teaching two
periods of astronomy every morning so better read a chapter or two
ahead of the students in the text book. Oh, and next semester you'll
be teaching advanced trig, but don't worry about that- nobody will
understand the subject well enought to realize you have no facility
what-so-ever for math."

Well, I would think that's a slight exaggeration. In CT, MA, RI and
NY you have to be certified to teach both subject and grade level.
Maybe it's different out there in the Great Northwest, but it's been
that way here for at least 30 years and longer as Mrs. Wave will be
finishing her 38th year this June. As far as I know, the only thing
that the NCLB act did was formalize that practice nationally - I can't
speak to areas outside of NE.

But in general, the system is not so good. Far too many districts are
strictly "teaching to the test". My son has several classes of HS
freshmen who are spending the entire 9th grade simply studying to pas
the 10th grade NCLB test- it's that critical to the district that
nearly all the 10th graders pass so that the district will continue
to
get federal school dollars.

That's about the size of it ok.

Horse****.

Not at all - it's a fact.

Ask the next question - do the teachers know the test questions?

What do you think they teach to?

If so, then the whole thing's been compromised anyway.

That's the point.

That's the point where *you* live. That's not the point where standards
are
established, used for curriculum design, taught, and tested. Here the
teachers have no idea of the test questions on the tests. In fact, the
testing room is proctored to ensure the teachers don't give help to the
kids taking the test.

What I see is a state which doesn't want to use standards (CT) being
compared to a state which uses them successfully.

I suppose it's another way to put down Bush - keep whining that NCLB
won't
work.
--
John H

It is a standardized test. The questions are all going to come from a
pool
of questions. A limited pool. So they test to the pool of questions.
The
kids may learn a little extra, but it is not teaching the subject.


Here, there is no 'pool' of questions given to teachers so the teachers
can
teach from the 'pool'.

But, if there were a pool of a few hundred questions for each standard
given to the teachers, I'd have no problem with it.

Teachers have always taught to a test, unless there were no test given. To
think otherwise is ridiculous.
--
John H

The pool of questions is not officially given to the teachers. Maybe? But
they know them very quickly after employment.


Well, there are only so many questions you can ask about George's crossing
of the Delaware, and there are only so many variations to a linear
equation. Are the teachers given the test each year to memorize? Here, the
tests are administered by computer. The teachers never see a the test.

I'm beginning to think you may be believing too much of the 'teach the
test' nonsense you hear from the 'hate Bush' crowd. Or, the state just
doesn't want to do the job properly.


--
John H