* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/17/2007 11:54 AM:

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Some years ago when you started ranting about catamarans, I made a
simple claim that you would have trouble finding any cases of
catamaran capsizes that met the following criteria: It had to be a
modern production cruising cat, not of the "crossbeam" style, or
homemade, or 40 years old; it had to be at least the size of my cat
(36'3") with appropriate beam and cruising rig; it had to be being
used for cruising, not racing or delivery. I even admitted that you
might find a few, but that it would likely be in conditions that would
put any monohull at severe risk, and that generally catamaran capsizes
end up as a story of survival, not loss.
...



Good job moving the bar, Jeff. I've posted dozens times and at least a
half dozen valid links in the past year alone of how unseaworthy
catamarans are. You can nit and you can pick and you can say, "That
ain't fair, Mom, he's not being fair!" but it won't avail you. The
pictures speak for themselves. Large cruising catamarans washed up
capsized on the beach in Oregon with loss of all hands.

One case, of ill-conceived delivery. This is the only case that
involved a fatality in years of trying.

Pictures of
large cruising catamarans upside down off the English Coast.

It wasn't a modern cruising cat, and you know it.

More
pictures of another upside down and being righted and pumped out with
total loss of mast and rigging.

A small racing cat.

More reports of one turning turtle on a
simple trip across the Gulf of Mexico. It goes on and on.

Close, but again a rather small cat, with an aggressive rig.

Keep moving that bar, Jeff. It just makes you look like somebody
who is incapable of seeing the obvious.

I'm not raising the bar, in fact I've made the same claim a number of
times over the years.

This was earlier this year:
"Actually I've rather obsessively searched for catamaran capsizes for
many years. There have been some, but very few. As I've posted a
number of times, there have been almost none that are cruising boats
over 35 feet, actually being cruised, not delivered. In point of
fact, none of the recent incidents fit these criteria."

In 2002, in response to a suggestion of a large airbag on the mast:
One problem with this is that there are very, very few cases of modern
cruising cats over 35 feet capsizing in any conditions. Smaller cats,
racing cats and trimarans may be able to make more use of it, but the
extra weight aloft might actually induce more capsizes!

In 2003, in response to a question about a racing tri incident:
"That was a racing trimaran, not a cruising cat; two totally different
boats. The have been only a handful of cruising cats over 35 feet
flipping while cruising"

In 2004:
"I'm real curious to know the model of the cat. 30 feet is on the
small size for catamaran safety because the general design which has
proven to be safe in sizes over 35 feet doesn't scale downward very well."


Catamarans are too dangerous to be used for voyaging on the world's
oceans.

That's something you'll never do, so why are you so concerned?

They'll likely not survive a storm at sea intact. That's the
truth and you'd better start accepting it.

And yet, their safety record is better than monohulls. The majority
of larger cats have probably done a long ocean passage - virtually all
of the charter cats in the Carribean got there on their own bottom.


And your logic if totally flawed with respect to monohulls sinking. You
ignore the numbers. Your claim is like saying "Look how many Ford F-150
trucks are involved in wrecks compared to Volkswagen Microbuses?" Well,
isn't that special? Never mind there are probably ten thousand F-150s to
every Microbus. When there are a hundred catamarans voyaging and one
hears six of them turning turtle one can assume one probably doesn't
hear of six more that capsized. That's twelve out of a hundred. Pretty
unsafe by the most lax standards, IMHO!

You're ignoring the fact that there are 5000 Prouts and none have
capsized. Prouts may have more successful navigations than brand of
sailboat. A similar number of Lagoons with a safety record almost as
good.

And you still haven't given us a single example that fits my criteria.
Its simple: 36 feet, modern design, while cruising. Stop giving us
ancient homebuilt racing trimarans and claiming they're representative.



Wilbur Hubbard