On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 09:04:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 6/7/2007 12:02 AM:

Yeah, they really hold their price.

Do they? I just looked a YachtWorld and there were several about 5
years old that were 2/3 the price of a new one - and that includes a
trailer and a big engine. This is a myth.

May be. But if you look at the prices for some of the older ones, I
bet they actually list them at more than they cost new. Remember that
anything prior to '95 isn't a X/M. Anyway, the listed price isn't
necessarily the real cost, so you may be right.

1. Even if the owner gets tired or "sailing," he still has a decently
fuel economical and trailerable powerboat, with about the same cabin
space of a $75k Bayliner. But about 18'' draft. Leave mast and sails
at home. Some do that, and look at it as powerboat only.

There are much, much better powerboats, including the Bayliner. And
are you sure about that comparison, or are you just parroting someone
else's comment? The Bayliner will carry more people further and
faster and in much more comfort than the Mac. And it only draws 20".

Yeah, I'm parroting somebody on the Mac group who was looking at
Bayliners for boating/weekending with his wife and kids. He did some
research, and what he said was all reasonable. It's easy enough to
verify. Most of those Bayliners (one of my kids had one) have 350's
and are real gas hogs. Never looked myself.

2. Macs normally don't have holding tanks/stinking hoses, don't smell
like ****, and don't have **** floating in the bilge.

Are you seriously claiming that having to use a porta-pottie is a
major advantage? This is sounding a lot like the mac is the boat for
people who never want to use a boat.

No, just that about every cruising log I've read has multiple
instances of plumbing failures and **** fouling the boat.
Maybe sailors just don't make good plumbers.
Personally, even though I *was* a plumber, I'd probably go with an
Airhead, and stow an extra **** tank if necessary. They're expensive,
but probably less costly in the long run.

And didn't the factory have to add an inspection port so you could
tell if water was accumulating in the bilge? And wasn't that because
the boat would be dangerously unstable with too much bilge water?

Lot's of ways to find something to criticize with any boat. That's
one. The stability stuff is overblown.

Wood is just a matter of style - most boats nowadays have very little
outside wood; mine has none.

Some folks just love to spend time rubbing teak.
But for anything but a liveaboard I don't like any more wood
below than necessary. Darkens the quarters, demands
care and covers the mechanicals. For the kind of boat use
I have in mind a spartan boat is better.

6. They are recent - the oldest X is '95, M 2002(?)

OK. Its pretty funny to see the same broker list a new boat at 37K
and a four year old boat at under 22K while you're claiming they "hold
their value."

That 37K broker price means nothing.
What it cost to buy and equip a new boat - Mac or other -
isn't a secret. In looking at many ads and reading accounts it seems
to me the Mac does real well with resale value, but frankly I haven't
priced many boats that are somewhat comparable, because there just
aren't many out there. I'd pay a nice premium for a boat that had
just simple Mac amenities, gunkholing ability and known good glass,
but better sailing performance. I'd like a small diesel myself, since
I'm not interested in speeding about. Outside of multi-hulls, a
knee-deep anchorage boat with some space aboard will never sail as
well as a keel. But they will sail, and are economical to move, if
slowly.

8. They sail at the low end of performance. Some sailors modify them
to reach moderate sailing performance in most but light air.

whatever - certainly there are a few who have stripped them out and
sail without ballast, but is this a reason to buy one???

One guy has a custom weighted daggerboard, custom rudders, sails,
rigging mods, etc. He keeps the ballast full, since only hot dogs do
otherwise because you *will* get knocked down.
Don't know what it's cost him, but he's having a lot of fun sailing SF
Bay in 30kt air. Points to 45, but an aft quartering sea sometimes
knocks him sideways putting him in broach mode. Light boat with
no keel, and you can't escape that.

Most of those "advantages" don't hold up to close inspection. With
the exception of being able to use the large engine, they are not much
different from other trailer sailers, except that the don't sail as
nicely. MacGregor did not invent the concept of a simple boat with an
outboard engine.

Yeah, I've heard that before. I clipped a list of trailer sailers
names Doug had in a post, and went looking for them.
Most were 25-40 years old sitting in backyards with birds nesting in
them.
But if you've got recommendations for gunkholers I'm all ears.
And I'm not keen about trailerable. I might even pay to keep
a trailerable waterside so I don't have to haul it around. The
trailerables are just commonly gunkholers and relatively inexpensive.
If I had my druthers I'd like more beam and length than the
trailerables. But trailerables still fit, since my aim is Florida
west coast key and sandbar excursions, and some Gulf fishing.
Couple weeks at a time. Three weeks max.

Are you sure? I saw some with an asking price under 15K. Without the
big engine maybe you could get one for 12.

That would be great, but I haven't run across that. Anyway, like I
remember Capt'n Neal saying on his website - don't pay an arm and
a leg for your first sailboat. Good advice.

I've read quite a bit on the Mac forum, and boy do I envy those guys.
Super-cool bunch too. Polite and helpful.

You mean like boaters almost everywhere, except at ASA?

heh heh


If that's where you want to go, you need shallow draft. If you want
to sail in the ocean, you'll be happier with a real keel. There are
many older trailer sailers that can be had on any budget, if that what
you want. You can also get a keel boat pretty cheap that doesn't need
to be gutted.

Yep, the shallow draft is tops on my list. Probably will never do any
ocean sailing. But who knows? I'm all talk right now.
That why I appreciate hearing about sailing from all the real sailors
here. Real people, with real sailing experience.
Ain't that cool?

I don't know, I just don't know. Maybe it's time to visit Capt'n
Neal's website for some advice. I think he covers the best methods
for a non-wealthy person to buy a boat. He's another polite and
helpful guy. Sometimes.

But remember, Neal lost his "unsinkable" boat.

A mere temporary setback, I'm sure. Like Ed Gordon, he will sail
again.

--Vic