On 19 May 2007 07:46:48 -0700, Joe wrote:

On May 19, 8:02 am, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On 18 May 2007 20:10:10 -0700, Joe wrote:





On May 18, 8:11 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

roups.com...

On May 18, 10:28 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

groups.com...

On May 17, 3:03 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Scotty" wrote in message

m...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message

Yeah, that's the ticket... fire or at least blame the
workers for
_negotiating_ successfully.

the ''workers'', and I use that term loosely, only do / vote
what the mob / union bosses tell them to.

SBV

So what? At this point, who's going to be harmed, according to Joe's
post...
the boss' or the workers?

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"j" ganz -Hidequotedtext -

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Hey Jon. In case you have not noticed the Americaqn auto industry is
in deep trouble because of all the dead weight the unions strapped
them with. The American auto industry spends more money on heathcare
for RETIRED employees than they spend on steel. Just how is any
company going to make a profit when they are forking out so much? The
only way they can compete in a world market is to start over without
the dead weight.

Joe

Agreed. However, 100s of 1000s are dependent on the agreements that were
reached when the industry was healthy. You can't cut people off at the
knees, so something needs to be worked out... gee, here's a solution...
universal healthcare. Everyone is then covered and the auto industry can
recover. Sorry... I know that's pretty liberal of me. g

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"j" ganz -Hidequoted text -

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Well the union people and bean counters had billions to invest and
manage to cover the cost of heathcare ect and did a **** poor job of
it. When you retire you have the option of taking all your stock and
selling it and investing in other forms of retirement. Let's face it,
the days of 20 years with a company and a gold watch retirement party
and lifetime pensions are over. If you wan't anything for your
retirement you better leverage your career now and plan for your own
retirement.

Here is the choice (reality) for for the American auto industry.
1. Start over without all the dead weight, so we can compete on a
world market.
2. No USA auto makers.

Joe

I guess that begs the question... do we need GM if Toyota builds cars in the
US?

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"j" ganz -Hide quoted text -

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I'll never buy a toyata, or any other jap mobile.
Having a strong industrial base is what made our country great, you
may be happy building Japan, but Id rather support Americans.

If I had my way, I'd impose a trade tariff that would level the field
with the japs and preserve the retirements that our mfgr's bear the
burden of. 40-50% import tax. And no country would be able to sell us
more than we sell them.

Joe

And you'd end up with high priced junk that no one could afford but
would have to buy because they would not have a choice.

The U. S. Auto industry had all the opportunity in the world to
improve. They could have embraced Demming when he was trying to move
them in the right direction. They wouldn't give him the time of day,
laughed him out of the country. He went to Japan and the rest is
history. Statistical Process Control became the foundation for DOE,
lean manufacturing and all the other innovative methods the Japanese
use to make the highest quality, massed produced products in the
world. They consider him a national treasure. An American.

The playing field with the Japs is level. They build here and have to
endure the same environmental, safety, workers comp foolishness,
litigation environment, potential for labor organization, that the big
three do. Difference is they have adopted methods to do it better,
while the U. S. corporations continue to just pay their executives
higher bonuses and stock options for crappy performance, and boards of
directors go along because they are at the trough too.

As I type, Toyota is building an assembly plant twelve miles, as the
crow flies, from my house. Going to provide 4000 quality jobs. In an
area of the country where all the U. S. Corporations are sending those
"extravagant" $10/hour jobs to china (theres where you have a playing
field that is in full tilt) so they can pay $1/hr to offer you crap
at a price that makes a killing for them. Now, you drive what you
want but who do you think I will support?

Frank- Hide quoted text -

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Frank American mfgs use Black belt, Kitzan, ISO, and have pretty much
adopted the same quality control standards as the Japs. But you are
correct Demming was the best. America missed out big time on taking
advantage of what he was teaching.

Joe, almost no one at the executive level understands Lean, Kaizan,
six sigma, SPC, DOE, GD&T. To them they are just buzz words. If you
don't understand and support at the top, it ain't going to work right.
Most U. S. Plants are still running with blue print tolerances and
feature inspection being the key driver for quality.

ISO is a joke, brings nothing to the party. You can become ISO
certified and make a terrible quality product.

That's not the issue. The issue is the massive overhead from unions
ect..that the US mfg. have to lug around. GM is 10,000.00 dollars in
the hole before they even start building a car.

I believe, no I know for sure since I've done it five times over a
fifteen year period, that two parties come to the negotiating table
to get a contract. So why did they agree to that? Complacency?
don't rock the boat for the next twelve quarters and we'll make ours
and get out? That would be my guess. So you blame the Union for
that?

And if stock owners and the boards feel they need to pay top money to
attract top talent what's wrong with that? Again no one is going to
leverage your career for you now days, so you need to leverage your
own skills and manage your own retirement.

No problem with paying for good performance, but, many are paid for
the type of performance that would get the factory floor guy fired.
Individual stockholders don't really have a say unless the
institutional buyers get fed up. And the boards of directors, who
have the power to act, is primarily a good ole boy club full of
conflicts of interest.

Ex CEO at the Corp. I worked for literally destroyed five subsidiary
companys, dropped the stock value by 50% and the board approved a
Million dollars a year for life enhanced retirement for him. And
that's very small potatoes compared to what many get for dismal
performance.

Frank

Joe