In article , Empress Otku wrote:
On 11 Jul 2003 17:08:57 GMT, Ignoramus11972
wrote:

Let me give you a more down to earth example.

Suppose that I declare your husband to be an abuser who needs removal
from your house. Then I break into your house, destroy your sunroom
and electrical panel during breakin, and your cats become collateral
damage. Then I occupy the house and become the ruler, staying in the
master bedroom. You and your family become my subjects. Electricity is
restored to the master bedroom only. Your husband is hiding in the
cellar.

Can we amend that to reflect that the SOB *is* an abuser! Let's just

okay, I did not want to accuse your husband of anything, but you said
it... Just kidding.

Even if he is an abuser... I come in to steal your stuff and not out
of concern for your welfare.

say, for example, he's killed the neighbors and happens to be ****ing
his 12 year old daughter. Personally, *I'd* say, "check out the
basement before you go, please!"

I admit, your points are not without merit as stated, but I think
you're being too simplistic. What if the only family members left are
squabbling about what to do next? Which church to go to, which
brothers to be left out of the will, and so on; backstabbing ensues.
There's no consensus and meanwhile people have to be fed.

Exactly. Once you get there, it is hard to get out. No doubt if the US
got out of Iraq instantly, it could be in some sort of upheaval. That
is why it was important not to get there. Even so, I suspect that the
uheaval from the US not getting out would be even worse.

electricity to the master bedroom only... when you get on an
airplane they tell you to put the oxygen mask over your own face
first, then assist the child you're with.

does not seem like much assistance is going on...

There is nothing new about wanting to kill thousands of occupied
people in exchange for your soldiers. Old as the warfare
itself. Worked for Genghis Khan. Did not work for most others. But it
does not work well in modern times. By The Way Genghis Khan was kicked
out of Afganistan despite his unrestrained brutality.

Who are the terrorists this time around? You suggest it's the U.S.,
apparently.

In the Iraq case specifically, the US is the wrongdoer.

The entire UN agreed as recently as five years ago that there were WMD
in Iraq.

I am not sure which resolution you are referring to, but it was
completely obvious that the US had no evidence of Iraqi WMD at
all. And they lie admin LIED to us about having that evidence.

We disagree completely. They may not have had more than a suspicion
this time around,

And yet the Bush admin claimed certainty about their WMD.

I also had a suspicion that Iraq had wmd. But I had no evidence.

but it was a suspicion shared by the international
community. I don't know that I would have made the decision to enter
Iraq, but to say they outright lied about anything other than
(perhaps) the nuclear issue is not correct.

Empress, they had no evidence, and yet they repeatedly claimed that
they were certain about Iraqi wmd.

snippage

I feel sorry for my wallet, myself, as well as for the US soldiers who
are suckers and now have to die in Iraq, and I am also sorry for the
Iraqis as well. They got into this horrid mess and now the US is
afraid to leave Iraq even more than they are afraid to stay because
that would undermine their "credibility". So they are guaranteed to
have years of struggle ahead.

This we agree on, for the most part.

outstanding.

i