On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:42:55 -0600, Don W
wrote:

Actually, adequate storage space for the "stuff"
as well as the boat equipment is the primary issue
for us.

And an issue it will always be and always has. Seriously, there's more
than we think, but it usually requires some wood butchery. Also, we
tend to bring along a lot more stuff than we need or even really want.
With the exception of spares for the engine and such and _REQUIRED_
tools, if you haven't used it in 6 months, a year max, get rid of it!
After almost a year on the Coronado we unloaded 3, that is THREE,
pickup truck loads of stuff we never used and in some cases forgot
existed. Back to tools. Make sure you have every size socket you may
need, along with box/open ends, etc. I got rid of an entire toolbox
full. Why did I have torx drivers when there wasn't one torx head on
the vessel? Duhhhhh....


Even our Catalina 27 has two good places to sleep.
The aft quarterberth is quite large, and the
table/settee makes down into nice double bed for
two people who like to sleep close. The big
problem is storage space.

Don, Don, you weren't listening. If you have to construct your bed,
table/settee, every night is ain't gonna work for longer than a
vacation. Note tone of write here is with a big smile. However, it's
true. But if you do use it just think of all the potential stowage
space under, on and over that vee-berth!


Ya gotta eat....

I've been thinking about taking the propane system
out of the Irwin, and replacing the gimballed
propane 3-burner stove/oven with a gimbaled
electric stovetop and seperate electric oven along
with a built-in microwave. We would plan on
running the (very quiet) genset when necessary for
cooking. SNIP

Before you tell me that we won't be able to cook
when the genset is on the fritz, let me add that
I'm thinking of having two small 3KW gensets, and
an 110VAC generator slaved off of the propellor.
shaft to allow for cooking while underway without
using the genset.

This is still in the idea stage, so if you feel
I'm overlooking something please tell me.

Sounds okay to me. Now, I don't really agree with it 100% for me,
mainly because of the efficiency losses. Using propane, or any other
stove fuel, the fuel is burned directly to create heat. Has to be at
least 75 to 80%. Even if 50%. Heck might even be 100% or close to it.
But, burning fuel in an internal combustion engine gives about 18% as
I recall, with the rest going to.... HEAT. Factor in an 85% efficiency
for the generator part. I don't think you're going to run anything
else of the genset while cooking. 3KW I think should run one burner.
As I recall a friend's 6.5KW could run two or the oven on his
Gulfstar. Might be wrong. I'm getting all this from memory. I've got
all the BTU/Watts/HP info someplace.

Okay. Let's try it this way. Cooking two meals a day 5-gal of propane
lasted on average four months or about 0.16666 qts a day. Let's be way
generous and say each meal took 15 minutes, or about 1/2 hour a day
cooking. Let's stay generous and say the genset will burn 1 qt an
hour, so 1/2 qt of gas per day to cook. That's 3 times the fuel. Using
the efficency figures above it comes out to 6.5 times as much, which I
think might be accurate.

The bottom line is it will work and if you're happy with it that's all
that counts.

I think I would buy one of those one-burner propane camp stoves for
backup. A lot cheaper and less stowage space than a second genset :-)

If you do it I'd like first chance to buy your propane stove.
Seriously. I am looking for one.


At home we've been doing almost all of our oven
cooking in a large toaster oven due to the fact
that we are currently remodeling the kitchen. You
know what? You can cook almost anything in that
little toaster oven that you can do in the big
oven, and it takes a _lot_ less space. We're not
talking about cooking Thanksgiving dinner for 12
here. Of course you need someplace to store your
pots and pans anyway...;-)

I came across some 12V ovens on the web. For use in trucks. I'm going
to look closer at that. They claim 300-deg heat and are quite
inexpensive. I'll go anyday for something practical that uses
renewable energy to use the buzz word. Probably draw waaaay too much
current, though.

Had an icebox conversion

Agreed. We've got a toploader fridge/freezer in
the Irwin right now. UGH! As soon as you pull
something out to use it, the other stuff falls
into the vacated space if the boat is moving
around at all. I've got to make some little
dividers or something...

Hee-hee. Laughing because been there, done that. The close to it
answer was a couple of sliding grill shelves and stuff placement.
Still better energy-wise though with top loading. Takes up a lot of
room, but a friend's Beneteu (SP?) had a long, shallow built in frige
and freezer. Oh well, one can expect some convenience aboard a
$300,000 boat!



Okay, now we get to repleshing that water we have to conserve....

Well, again to each their own. The larger boat
allows space for the watermaker, and the genset
provides the power to run it when you need it.
The same power provides plenty of hot water. In
fact (heresy warning) we plan on running the air
conditioner from time to time if it is still too
hot in the evening. Got to make sure that the
genset is _really_ quiet.

A/C at anchor!!! Ohhhhh noooooo! Just kidding.

Our H2O tank is only 70 gallons. A 25 GPH reverse
osmosis watermaker should fill it from empty in 3
hours. While the genset is running the
watermaker, it is also making hot water, charging
the batteries, and providing power for cooking.
So, 3 hours at 1/3 gallon per hour and the typical
$5 per gallon means $5 per day for fuel when
anchored out. That is $150/month, and less than
our current slip fee, so not quite up to the
$10,000-a-month crowds costs yet. In fact, I'm
thinking it will typically be less than the bar
tab--until my wife turns on the air conditioner ;-)

Uh Don. Don baby! You better get a bigger genset! No. Really. I'm
serious. The water heater is half your 3K, the stove is all of it, the
25 GPH watermaker is about 1KW (About 3 AH, or 29 W per gallon). So to
do all at once you need a 5.5KW plus a bit of overhead. And you're up
to about .9 GPH for gasoline, .6 GPH for diesel.


That's the rub with this energy thing. It takes a lot more then people
realize. And when you convert one energy type to another, i.e. burn
gasoline to convert to torque and motion to convert to electricity to
convert to heat, there's going to be losses. Sometime great losses. I
think I recall solar panels are about 6% efficient. Just think when
and if they come up with a breakthrough and get 48% - 1/8 the panel
size for the same energy! When I built my electric car in the early
90's, I had 1,125 lbs of batteries. Gave be 34 KWH. Sounds like an
awful lot, doesn't it? Well 1 gallon of gasoline will yield 34.5 KWH
if you do the BTU to KWH conversion. Of course if your gasoline engine
and generator on the 3 KW genset were 100% efficient you could run it
a bit over 10 hours instead of 3. Because of the efficiency of the
electric motor in the car, I got about 120 miles from that electrical
"gallon" of battery. Works out pretty close to the propane stove vs.
genset/electric stove stuff above.


Please don't get a 25 GPH watermaker, unless you plan on using at
least 50 Gallons of water per day! We had a 1.5 GPH. Honestly I'd like
a 3 GPH or there abouts, but I'd be happy with another 1.5 or even a
1. As above, it's going to energy cost you 3 AH per gallon, whether it
makes that gallon in 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 hours. You should have
something that will run several hours a day, otherwise it tends to
give trouble. Take the money you save on the watermaker and use it for
6 months to a year in the Bahamas! Or to buy a bigger genset :-) We
had one couple offer to trade their 8 GPH one for our 1.5, another guy
offered us his 15 GPH one and $1,000 (Paid $2,250 or ours at the
time). That should say something. Mainly that they watched us fill our
tank every day with no hassle and they had nothing but hassle.


We have a wind generator, and plan on adding solar
panels as well. I've done the math though, and
that genset is going to have to run some. Better
it than the Yanmar though, because the Yanmar
makes a lot of noise and causes a fair amount of
vibration.

I've pointed out the experience and reasoning before, so I can flatly
say I'm not spending a dime on a wind generator. The only reason I
kept the two on the Coronado is because they were already there and
they looked neat. They supplied maybe 10% of the power, with solar
doing the other 90. Actually 100% almost always. Yes there are places
where wind is great, but not those nice protected anchorages.



We're going to spend a month on the Irwin later
this year, and then we'll see. My spouse of 24
years has her doubts, but I'll wager she ends up
really liking it.

I hope so! Remember our mantra, "We'll get used to it!"

Yes, it is different, but if one can set up things so it's mostly
living in a different place and not camping out.

Rick