The Grand Backpedal Continues. Booby is now denying everything he
said. I guess he talked to his friend who set him straight. Let's see
if we can count the number of times he contradicts what he said
before, or otherwise demonstrates that he really doesn't understand
the basic terminology. (Don't bother counting; the answer is every
time he speaks.)


Capt. Rob wrote:
However, the 15% improvement you're claiming
would imply a 100 point PHRF improvement.

Only if the polars were correct. Quite a few boats have prove abilities
well beyond the polars originally drawn up.

So let's see one that was done in the last 15 or 20 years that was off
by 15% in upwind prediction. What you're claiming is that Beneteau
shipped a boat that the polars predicted was as slow upwind as a
Westsail.



So it would appear that your major burst of speed only works on
boats
that are not racing, when no one is watching.

Nope, it appears on a coarse which you refuse to acknowledge.

What course is that? You're the one who doesn't know what course he
was on. I've only said it doesn't matter.

You kept saying you weren't pointing that high. However, you
actually
admitted several times that you have no idea what your point of sail
actually was.

That is to say I don't know the specific number you'd demand for this
discussion.

I'm not demanding anything. I've only suggested that any sailor who
was on the boat at the time might know what point of sail the boat was
on. You don't seem to fit that description.


So tell us Bob, were you even there?

Now you're just being silly. I shot the clips with my Casio.

That does not appear to be true. You can't tell us the point of sail.


Sometime you say that, other times you don't.


I have always maintained that the mark was to windward in clip #2, but
that we weren't beating.

Actually you said it was directly to windward. Except for the time
when you said it was 10 degrees off the centerline. Of course, after
the fact, you changed you mind and said that wasn't so.



You said several times he was reading off his GPS. A GPS alone

Who said GPS alone? Were the other instruments to be ignored?

No, but they don't help that much. You asked if a handheld GPS was
inferior, and I said yes it is because it is not integrated with the
other instruments. You're just babbling here to cover up your little
blunder.



Frankly I'm skeptical as to whether a basic system like Ray
ST60 can do it, I certainly take my instruments with a huge grain of
salt.

Well, they're your instruments. Trust them or don't.

I trust them, within their limitations. But then, I use them when
making actual trips, sometimes offshore. When you never leave sight
of your slip you don't have to learn how your instruments work. You
can just make up numbers to impress your "friends."


Actually, that's one of the basic issues of the discussion; you
should
have realized immediately that a VMG to Windward of 6 knots was bogus.

Except that you still refuse to admit that VMG to windward is ANY
course above a beam reach. That's a fact.

WRONG! Ask any sailor with experience. "VMG to Windward" has a very
specific meaning. It is "the velocity made good in the direction the
wind is coming from." It is not the VMG to some other arbitrary point
that might happen to be somewhat to windward. If that's what you
mean, then you have to VMG to some point. In fact, that is what the
GPS reports, it is not "VMG to Windward."


Its even possible that you could have momentarily hit that when
close to the wind

We weren't very close to the wind.

You keep saying that. And that's why it is impossible that your VMG
to Windward was 6 knots. When you figure out what "VMG to Windward"
really means, you might understand this.


Sure, within about 15%. That's a pretty good estimate.

Estimate means GUESS, educated or not.

Do you have a point?



You also claimed it was "directly to windward." So are you now
claiming that "directly to windward" means anything on the windward
side of your boat? Of course, you don't understand the meaning of
these words, do you?


Uh, Jeff. Let's try to be honest for a second. Here's my exact quote:
"Second clip, still some nice air and off to windward at just over 6
knots VMG.... "
OFF TO WINDWARD is not directly to windward, now is it??? Hmmmm? Where
is the word DIRECTLY???

The concept of directly is implied by "to windward at just over 6
knots VMG." If you hadn't said VMG, it would have been understood as
speed through the water by most sailors. But by using "VMG" and "to
windward" together, you imply the VMG directly into the wind.


Looks like you read my post and inferred what you needed to draw out
this entertaining debate! But the fact is that you got it
wrong....which is what you wanted to do anyway.

I inferred exactly what every sailor would infer. In fact, I
explained exactly what the meaning of the phrase was and essentially
admitted that you didn't understand the fundamental concept.



Why can't you actually tell use how
close to the wind you were sailing? Weren't you there?

Sure I was there. Will you take an estimate?

Given your ability, it would have to be a very coarse estimate.

The 8 knots speed through the water, at 45 degrees to the wind,
yields
a VMG of 5.65 knots. At 50 degrees this becomes 5.1, at 55 degrees
its 4.6, and at 60 its 4 knots. This doesn't include leeway, which
the GPS would pick up, so you have to add 3 to 4 degrees and degrade
the performance accordingly.

Sure, read all that...and as I also indicated we TOPPED 8 knots and
winds were higher than 14 knots on the water. The 35s5 does a fine job
of cutting leeway with her wing.

Ooops! You've just opened up another area where you can demonstrate
ignorance. Here's a hint: your wing keel does not improve your
performance to windward. It allows you to have performance almost as
good as the normal keel with a smaller draft. Not too many boats have
better upwind performance with a wing keel than with a deep keel.

With that in mind my 6 knot claim
doesn't appear to be the gross error you make it out to be.

Nonsense. Its a pretty gross error. There's almost no 35 footers
that can do 6 knots "VMG to Windward" while on a close reach. And
since you're not claiming extreme speeds, its a physical impossibility.

And in all
of this, knowing we were on the LIS you utterly failed to take into
account a favorable current.

Actually, I mentioned "through the water" several times. And it takes
a real jackass to try to explain off a blunder like this by saying you
might have been confused by the current!

I did not check, but that also could play
a part. You've hardly been complete in your examination of the videos,
the facts as presented and so on.

Why should I? I was very specific about the meaning of "VMG to
Windward." I even included "speed through the water." The videos
were irrelevant. They only serve to show your ignorance, such as
labeling a shot when you're on a close reach as "windward work."


What a putz!

A putz who sails more than you and has a ton of fun! Doing a short
cruise this weekend starting tomorrow afternoon, then delivering a
Catalina 34 from Mystic to my club. How much sailing are you getting
in? And I'm not even retired!

You have to sail another 50,000 miles or so to catch up to me.

And if we just count to on the boat away from the dock, you don't even
come close to me nowadays. For instance, I've averaged 70 full 24
hour days a year on aboard for the last 14 years. You probably don't
do 70 day sail


Yes I did. What about it?


So you lied. Exactly.

I lied? How you you figure that? I said 1/4 mile would be obviously
too close, because I could do the math in my head. You said it was
more like 3/4 of a mile - that took me a few seconds to do the
calculation and it turns out that's also too close. You were there -
you should have been able to eyeball it and say its too close because
the bearing was shifting. You shouldn't need me to do this for you.

And this is central to the discussion. Because you have never learned
the fundamentals of sailing, you don't appreciate how stupid you sound
when you make your claims. Your VMG of 6 knots was clearly bogus from
the beginning, simply because this is extremely high, especially for a
35 foot boat. Once you said you weren't close to the wind, it became
a physical impossibility. Everyone except knew that, except for you.
And you should have realized immediately that any VMG described in
your conditions clearly could not be the correct VMG to Windward. You
desperately want everyone to think that you're knowledgeable about
sailing, you certainly blown any chance of that with this thread!


It doesn't change the math.

And yet you change the numbers when they fail to support you!

What numbers fail to support me?


Moreover, you've said the mark was directly upwind

Another lie. I said it was to windward, which is NOT directly to
windward regarding course.

Oh really??? When I said "Perhaps I should be more explicit: The
mark has to be directly to windward. Not slightly to windward of your
centerline. There is a huge difference."
you replied:
"Agreed. I'm giving you the bouy location to best of my ability."

And when I said:
"So what was it, directly upwind or 10 degrees off the bow?"
you said:
"In clip #2 it's directly to windward. Do you know what that means?"

That certainly sounds like you were saying "directly to windward" to
me. So now you're going to claim that "directly to windward" does not
mean in the directly from which the wind is blowing, aren't you? You
think you can weasel out of this by inventing new definitions of the
terms. But no one is buying that. Its painfully clear that you
simply didn't know the meaning of the terms until Bob educated you
last night.


Directly To Windward? None, for your boat. But you seem to be
confused about the term "VMG to Windward."

There he goes again with the "directly" stuff. It's his ace in the
a-hole!

No. It what sailors care about. You've just admitted that you really
did not understand the meaning of the terms. I hope you thanked Bob
for cluing you in on what sailors really talk about.