K. Smith wrote:
trainfan1 wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...

K. Smith wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:


K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so
far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a
Merc made the claimed 250HP (+),




On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...



The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping
their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers
will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb
engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's


was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.




BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...



I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been
relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the
class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the
dealers are trying to still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra
money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines
which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector
system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per
cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none
of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being
thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do
whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way
the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate,
subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not
even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to
flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it
all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when
the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour
found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks &
that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd
refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were
flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even
made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got
bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??


A name change doesn't clear the slate,




It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you
probably don't...



It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed
"improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold
together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their
super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??


Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot
spots in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???


Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot
piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens
cylinder temperatures reducing detonation.



Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?


No.

Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more
readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for
even more transfer.


There is an added problem here Rob, there has always been a well
understood problem with crankcase transferred 2 strokes of heat getting
carried away from the piston. No matter what alloy is used the heat has
to go somewhere & the only place that's even remotely cool is the bore,
& the only path for the heat is through the rings. (that's where you
find the baked oil confirming way way too hot a piston)

The age old problem with trying to make big 2 strokes work is that as
the bore increases so the piston surface area exposed to the burn
increases by the square, but the effective length of the rings only
increases linearly. So the rings have to carry more heat into the bore
with less unit contact area. Usually it becomes a hiding to nothing sort
of thing, you reduce the specific output so the heat load through the
rings stays managable (detune) or you use more rings. It's pretty much
accepted that the upper limit for safe 2 strokes even when not being run
lean, is 500cc per cyl.

High specific output 2 strokes can't even get there ie. racing motor
bikes tiny bores but lots of them, successful high specific output 2
stroke OBs?? the early Mercs again no big bores but lots of small pistons.

Now E-Tec goes above the "accepted safe" barrier & nobody in the
industry even asks, it really is just super markup marketing gone
mad........ again.

I still suggest their engines are experimental on every count. Like
Ficht; experimental but still being marketed & it seems at hugely
inflated dealer padding prices??




How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??


Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation.



I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?


Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it.

This really is a subject that needs clarification Rob, with the
"ordinary" tcw3 does the ECU flow more or less?? does the ECU use
different mixture/spark profiles???

I guess what I'm just too delicate & shy to ask is;

Do they use more oil??? Do they effectively detune the E-Tecs if you
elect to run them on standard warranty oil??? & if so shouldn't that be
disclosed in the advertising???

If there's no downside to using the standard "recommended" oil why do
the forums seem to make an issue when an E-Tec blows? The first
rejoinder from the ever hovering E-Tec dealer protection squads is to
claim the owner almost deserves it, because they didn't pay extra for
the dealer only "special" oil??? Why would anyone use the special oil??
what's your pitch for that?? because it could be very enlightening (ah
enlightenment those were the days, not that I'm unhappy with wm:-))



How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???


It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of
the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the
injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good
combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to
attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete
combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks
- the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling
process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is
this really a significant factor?


In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system.

And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.


Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A
2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector
must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to
approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of
combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses
associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while
using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical.



How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??


This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??


Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...



Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack
plates. And they love WOT.


I just made that up.



The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a
lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other
brands???


You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del


I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the
engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC
offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands
still in use.

I accept they work or at least a goodly majority, but even though Ficht
had a 1 in 5 failure rate that still leaves 4 thousand out of 5 thousand
still going as you say. They must have flogged lots because they ****ed
1.3 Billion US against the wall doing it:-) To the boaters it doesn't
mean much because any boat with a ficht attached is worthless on the
used market, we've even had new complete boats sold here at below
secondhand prices just because they had fichts attached.

Anyway a good discussion & thanks as always.

K



Karen,
Do you have any proof that the markup and rebate on Fichts and Etec are
any different than other marine engines?

--
Reggie

"That's my story and I am sticking to it."