Rosalie B. wrote:
"JG" wrote:
I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on
others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave
to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as
other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never
heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave
conditions either.
I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well
known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to
be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I
went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no
longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either.
You might be able to google it.
They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the
boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and
I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that
was lying ahull.
Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the
sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full
fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC
breaking wavelets.
I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've
never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was
just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and
demonstrated) was so.
I tried to Google the newsgroups on this and finally found where I
wrote about this before, and it was on the world_cruising list and not
a newsgroup.
This is what I wrote and what someone responded to me on
Tue, 21 Aug 2001
...I have a video tape about heavy weather sailing (in addition to the
Pardey's book and another book and a couple of books about sea
anchors/drogues which we have one of, but haven't had a place to try
it yet.)
I think the video tape makes the point that different boats will have
different optimal methods of dealing with heavy weather. The boat in
the video had a fin keel, and when hove too, it was broadside to the
waves, which would not be good. The experts in the video recommended
that such a boat would do better to run before the wind. I made notes
on the tape (watched it twice) and this is what my notes say:
The tape is "Heavy Weather Sailing", and it was narrated by Mark Schrader
(apparently an organizer and racer) and written by Gary Clark and Tim Sevison.
The demo boat named "Segue" was sailed off the northern California coast
and was manned by Zan Drejes (Bear Flag Yacht Services), Liz Baylis (a
competitive sailor) and Allan Little (Merchant Marine Officer and charter
boat captain). They specified that the boat was a moderate displacement
fin keel, spade rudder boat with a roller reefing (headsail) system and
that they were simulating a shorthanded (i.e. cruising and not racing)
crew.
The tape addressed sailing in heavy weather (various aspects), protective
equipment and storm tactics. Various experts were interviewed, and these
included:
Steve Dashew, Warren Luhrs (President of Hunter Marine), John Jourdane,
Olaf Harken, Mike Plant (competitive sailor), Jay Mason (Master Chief at
USCG Motor Lifeboat School) who spoke about seasickness, John Neal
(author), and David Kennedy (owner of Armchair Sailor Bookstore).
Specialists on sails and rigging included Patrick Adams, Steve Taft, Neal
Pryde and Pryde's sails manager Tim Yourteff. I have no way of knowing how
famous or infamous any of these people are as I did not recognize any names
except Steve Dashew.
Among other things, they said: Boats with modern underbodies are capable
of surfing (downwind as an active storm tactic) well in excess of hull
speed, but that older designs are not suited to active tactics. Schrader
reiterated that fin keel spade rudder boats increase steering control with
increased speed. Dashew also said that medium to light displacement fin
keel, spade or skeg rudder boats will steer better at high speeds than full
keel heavy displacement boats. Luhrs felt that the Colin Archer designs
(implied older designs here) were so heavily built that they could handle
heaving to without a problem.
Then they addressed passive tactics - a time when even under bare poles the
boat is moving too fast to steer. Schrader described heaving too, and
asked if a fin keel boat could heave to, so the demo boat tried it. They
ended up hove to with the wind and seas abeam, and Schrader said that
modern boats tend to pivot around the fin keel.
I thought that the boat belonged to Zan, who did most of the helmsman work,
and so I assumed that if he could heave his own boat to that it wouldn't
work well on that boat or on that type of boat.
They did address a drogue once and said it should not be put in from the
bow.
--------
Answer of another list member and
my reply interspersed
I believe I bought that video at a flea market for $5.00 then sold it on e-bay
when I saw what it was. It was mostly paid for by Hunter. Hunter and Steve
Dashew have an interest in light fin keel boats. The video gave me the
I got it second hand too. I mostly discounted what it said because I
know we CAN heave to, and that we DON'T have a light fin keel boat.
So I assumed that the tactics that they advocated would not be optimal
for us. I didn't know the connection with Hunter. But that's why I
was careful to say who they used as 'experts' - because I had/have no
idea who they were.
impression they wanted you to believe Hunters etc. are good blue water boats
because they can out run bad weather. They then wanted you to believe if you
handled the boat like they said it would be safe in a storm.
Some observations. When they couldn't get the boat to heave to they tried
running down wind. This presented the unreinforced sugar scoop transom to the
seas. That was Ok in the approx. 20 knts wind they were in. They were also I
think in the bay. Deadly offshore with a drogue to slow you down. Read the
comments of the coast guard study on that one..
I don't think they were in the bay - they were somewhere off the west
coast IIRC.
It was also my impression that the video was intended to be for their version of
heavy weather which seemed to be about 20 to 25 knts in protected waters. Kind
of a left handed way to get people to buy their boats. Actually might be Ok for
people who just want a spacious boat to sail on the bay. They probable can out
run bad weather and get back to the slip. Some what harder to do on a long
offshore passage.
Anyway I was left with a bad feeling that that video could get someone hurt if
it caused a newbe to believe the boat could do more than it can.
grandma Rosalie
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