A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:
in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 4/6/05 7:10 PM:
Scott thinks:
=============
teaching a child that authority has teeth, and that defiance
may have painful consequences is absolutely necessary if the child is
to grow up into a responsible adult.
================
Why am I thinking of Stanley Milgram right now?
Could it be.... teaching people the importance of obeying authority....
naaahhh!
Funny thing is, my children are very well-mannered and well-behaved
(almost to a fault) but I've always asked them to question authority
(not necessarily verbally, but at least intellectually). In fact, I
*never* want them to "accept" authority without question!
frtzw906
The real danger is in teaching compliance rather than respect.
That can be a problem. Still, if the choice is compliance or respect, I'll
take compliance.
"I sit quietly so you won't hit me" is not respect.
If that is the only thought process, you're correct, but most often, the
thought process is rather more complex.
That is fear, resulting
in compliance.
Well, depending on the need for compliance, compliance can come first, and
respect later. I don't need a two-year-old to respect me when I tell him not
to run out into the street, I need his instant, unquestioning obedience. If
fear of punishment causes that compliance, fine. At some later time, when
he's intellectually capable of understanding why I required unquestioning
obedience, I'll be happy to explain to him why, and hopefully he will be
able to see that he owes me respect because it was his safety that I was
concerned with. This is, in fact, the way it usually happens.
There is no internal motivation to change the behaviour, it
is through external threat only that the change is achieved.
Don't be silly. The internal motivation is: "Scott was extremely displeased
at my behavior and he punished me for it. Why would he do that? Hm, maybe
what I did was wrong or dangerous. Perhaps I should amend that behavior in
order to gain both approval from Scott and avoid further painful and
embarrassing punishment, not to mention avoiding the possibility of physical
harm."
The external threat stimulates the internal motivation. Children are pretty
good at picking up on adult approval and disapproval. That's how they learn
to survive, and always have.
This type of behavioural management teaches people to be victims and
victimizers.
That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard you say, and it's completely
without foundation or reason.
Someone who is having trouble focusing in class who gets a smash on the back
of the hand is being forced to comply.
Yup. They are also being taught that concentration is desirable and less
painful. Pure operant conditioning.
There is no learning or respect or
understanding.
Wrong. Even a rat can learn behaviors in response to operant conditioning,
so clearly there's learning going on. "If I do that, it hurts. I guess I
won't do that."
The understanding and respect comes later.
Just compliance.
Compliance first, understanding and respect later. It's a multi-step
process.
And that is what that child is learning -
comply, or else.
Yup. A lesson every child must learn. Then they learn *why* they must
comply, and they learn why it is that they were punished, and who, and when
they are subject to justifiable punishment. As a result, they learn proper
behavior, respect and how to successfully integrate into society. This is
not random brutalization we're talking about here, it's specific corporal
punishment administered for specific wrongdoing. Even small children
understand the cause and effect in getting a smack on the bottom for
disobeying a parent's safety instructions.
And this is training for being a victim.
Hogwash, poppycock AND balderdash!
The next person of
authority who seeks their compliance may have the intention to sexually
assault them. And the child has been taught that refusal to comply results
in a beating, and that they are powerless. So the comply.
Nonsense.
They also learn to seek compliance from others, using the same technique as
the authority figure that taught them how to do it. It could be younger kids
in the schoolyard or siblings at home. And eventually a wife and kids.
Specious nonsense.
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser
"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM
© 2005 Scott Weiser