On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:42:20 -0500, DSK wrote:

Michael wrote:
Boat Buying Sailboat

I have been doing research on boat purchasing.


Working on a very obscure Ph.D thesis?

Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure

It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to
the asking price and not the actual selling price.

Don't think so, AFAIK it's based on the reported sale prices.


Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be
seen by how clean the heads floor is.


Almost every single boat for sale will have been lacking in preventative
maintenance. It's the nature of the beast... but you want to look very
carefully at potential problems to avoid the nightmares that are
*definitely* out there.

Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need:

- rudder rebuild

Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have
the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the
boat had some really really special characteristics.

Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also
exist.

Rudders probably get the most wear of any part of the boat even when
docked. Keel hung rudders have long been seen as a "blue water"
attribute, like full keels and heavy displacement. But they are
"unbalanced" require more effort, And dont lend themselfs to steering
in reverse well. A spade rudder is a considerably more of a rebuild
issue than any other style. I could think of many more siginificant
issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild.

Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000

- standing rigging replacement

Again, why? Careful inspection... some boats will need standing rigging
replaced, but I don't believe in simply "changing out" stuff that's
perfectly good. One often hears about people replacing & up-sizing their
standing rigging... this is downright stupid, unless one believes that
the boat designer was a moron... in which case one should buy a
different boat!

Standing rigging has little to do with the designer and the reason to
replace it. One guy in New Zeland actually uses galvinized standing
rigging, that is in salt water, of course. Now that may seem stupid,
but:
1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss)
2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure
-cheaper to replace

3 inorder to keep it in good condition requires a heck of a lot of
maintenance with coatings

Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and
couplings not the actual wire itself.

26ft = $1,200 stainless



- running rigging replacement

Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't
sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer.

Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block
replacement

- bottom paint

Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for
this. It's a regular maintenance item.

If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different
story. This is an issue that usually nixes a boat purchase in many
instances.

- motor maintenance or replacement

If the motor is that bad, look for a different boat.

If it is an inboard, ya look for a different boat as replacement costs
is $3,000-6,000 min.
I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. That are like a
saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a
lazerette. Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB.

- battery replacement

Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't
have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor
batteries. Not much money or hassle here.

If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400 many
cruisers spend $1,200 for more amp hours

- many have original sails

See above, same as running rigging. OTOH if a boat has 'original sails'
then it probably has not had other items replaced, maintained, or cared
for, and may indicate a boat best left alone. Sails are more expensive
that you'd believe.

Average working life of a sail? Yes they cost more than you think. A
new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus


- cushion replacement and uphostering

See above under "running rigging."

I have seen costs of over $1,000 for this...cloth and foam work

- port lights

??


The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older
26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a
price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the
purchase price?

Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands.

Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like
working with fiberglass....this issue would qualify as the ultimate
project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there
is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat, and it seems (from
my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue.
Around the stanchions or hardware not too bad but full decks, forget
it.


How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or
combination thereof?

Would the cost be:
-what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard


If you're not willing & able to do the work yourself, don't get a boat.
Seriously. Even a relatively small boat with some combination of the
above problems will keep you in penury to the end of your days, and
you'll spend far far more than the boat will ever conceivably be worth.

I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy
more. Many that bought boats didnt consider them "project boats" but
after 1- 1 1/2 years latter, that what they have become.

Yes many spend more than the boat will ever be worth like the Hr28
some guy suggest in this thread. And I think that when it come time
for them to sell the boat they dont price it realistically. Based on
boats generally that Hr28, although it seems to have nice ammenties,
still the unseen price is probably 1/3 of the asking at best on a good
day. If it was a triton in bristol condition with a new inboard, the
current asking price might be close to being realistic. The guy
selling it just isnt realistic or not really interested in selling it,
he should read the info at the URL provided.

The URL provided for the boat buying process is par excelances...



-would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the
value of the work that you would do yourself.


Yes... although my own work is priceless, it's time spent on the boat
and thus is (mostly) recreation in itself.

I wouldnt necessarly consider fiberglass, bottom jobs
recreation....many but not all would rather have purchased a boat
requiring less work in hindsight....my research shows...
Its sort of the girl friend time VS "quality time" thing

How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is?


By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at
what else is on the market.

Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition
what would it be worth. Then reduce that by all the calculated hard
costs (parts) not including your labour, but including some specilized
labour (ie engine rebuilding, machining work, etc) then figure the
price. A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Perceived and even actual condition is subjective in many instances.

As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an
offer less than asking price?


If the boat is cherry & is just what you want, 10% less. If there are
'issues' then it's roll yer own. A boat that's been on the market for a
long time may change hands for a tiny fraction of the original ask
price. Others simply get left for the boatyard to recycle.

Likely....





If you get a remarkable deal, go with it.

The "deal of a lifetime" comes along about once a week.

Not so sure about that...survey say many look for at least 6 months
the average about 1 1/2 years before buying...



prodigal1 wrote:
alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around
you want to buy a great old boat, buy this

http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm

boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River
no relation to seller


Seems like a nice boat, but isn't the price a bit steep?

Not a serious seller....


Ryk wrote:
Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1

There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people
are mostly after something bigger and/or newer.

You're kidding, right? It's true that the Hinterhoeller is a much nicer
& better built boat, but is it really 3 1/2 X nicer? Consider relative
costs.

OTOH the HR-28 might take less updating than the O'Day, and will
certainly fetch a higher price when you eventually sell it. I've seen
the case made that an older higher priced higher quality boat is
actually less expensive to own in the long run.

Fresh water VS sal****er boats.....
The HR28 a nice boat and design of its time although I dont like the
ballast to weight ratio, for an older boat a Triton or an Alberg would
be preferable to me.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King