KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
ps.com...
....snip...
A belief system regarding God, is a religion, even if it is a
system
that believes that God does not exist. Believing that the earth is
made
of cream cheese, as long as it does not say anything about God, has
nothing to do with religion, may say something about your
credentials
as a geophysicist, and definitely means I would not want to be
sending
you to the store for a gallon of cream cheese.
Again, I know you have a distaste for dictionaries, but the common
understanding of what religion means is:
1. a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers
regarded as
creator and governor of the universe.
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief
and
worship.
The fact that I do not have a religious belief system cannot possible
result
in my being "religious" or "having religion."
You are your own god , you worship self, what you say determines the
reality of your existence. Sounds like religion to me.
....snip...
I have no more evidence that there is no god than I have evidence
that the
core of the earth is not made of kraft dinner. I am quite confident
that the
core of the earth is not made of kraft dinner. I am even more
confident that
there is no supernatural invisible being thingy that rules the
universe. I
cannot, however, offer proof of either, as I cannot travel to the
core of
the earth, nor can I force your own imagination to function within
the
confines of reality.
So if you have no evidence to support what you say, "there is no God",
then what you believe is based on Blind Faith, and not any rational
thought process. The scriptures say, the fool has said there is no God.
I guess they had you in mind when they wrote this. From the beginning,
there have been those who made a similar claim. And there is still
nothing new under the sun.
I have ask you repeatedly to provide evidence and support the
basis of
what you say you believe, "There is no god",
....snip...
So if you only make the claim with no support, no evidence, no
corobborating statements by God, what is the basis of your
Faith, or is it Blind Faith?
....snip...
It's not very absurd, Tinkerntom. Much less absurd than your
belief
in an invisible man.
You say that I believe in an invisible man! What is your basis
for
saying He is invisible. Because you haven't seen Him? How do you
know
God is invisible? Again what is the basis for this statement?
Let's take it another way, since you are the one with the belief.
Have you seen god Tinkerntom?
The scriptures say that no man has seen God, but the same
scriptures
say that many men have seen Theophanies. These are apperances of
God in
a form that is recognizable to the observer as being Godly, and yet
being understandable from our earthly perspective. To answer your
question, yes I have seen numerouus Theophanies at numerous times.
I am
also sure that there have been times that He has appeared, that I
did
not recognize him, but that would not mean that He was not seen,
just
not recognized.
Have you seen god Tinkerntom?
I have seen various manefestations of the Trinity! I have seen Jesus on
a number of ocassions, I believe Jesus is a member of the Trinity.
Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." Jesus said
that He is in equal partnership with the Father, and the Holy Spirit
who make up the Godhead. In His theophanies, He appears not as God,
but as man though some have seen Him pass through walls as recorded in
the Scriptures, which is miraculous.
He has eaten food and wine with them, and healed the sick, and raised
the dead.
I have seen confirmed cancer healed instantly, and confirmed by the
doctors that the cancer is gone the very next day. When she was healed,
I saw the Lord standing above the congregation, and reach down and
touch her.
I have seen a man with rhumetoid arthritis so bad that he could not
stand up, his hands all twisted and knarled, so that he could not hold
a pen to write, I saw the hand straighten out, and the back and the
legs, so that not only did he stand up, but he started shouting and
praising God and the people ask Him to leave the service. They were not
to happy about God interupting their service, but he was very glad.
Dave P. 1984
I saw a woman rigid in death grip, get up from a bed and start dancing.
She was one of you Canadians, and she got very excited about God and
being alive again. She literally took up her bed and danced. This shook
up a bunch of Christians who said God does not do this any more. Jan F.
1974
I saw a man in his late twenties that had diabetes, and had taken
insulin shots every day of his life. God touched him and healed him so
that his body never needed another insulin shot. Mike M. 1988
I have personally been healed, my knees were injured in a work related
accident, and the doctor said even with surgery I would never be able
to walk normal again. God touched me by the Holy Spirit, and my knees
snapped back into place. I literally heard the snap. I have since taken
up biking, Skiing, rollerblading, and all to the Dr. amazement and who
still does not believe his own eyes.
I know a man whose back was literally broken, and the Drs said no way
will he ever be more than a quad, but God healed him, and if you think
I won't stop talking about God's Love, you need to meet Harold K. 1977
to present
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would come to the early church and
comfort them even as Jesus had been comforting them. I have seen
evidence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, being the third member of
the Trinity, is a spiritual or non coporeal entity, who appeared as
flames of fire on Pentacost, and at other times in various
manefestations. The Holy Spirit works through the Body of Christ,
expressing Himself by using various Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and in
the lives of Believers through the Fruit of the Spirit. In my own life
I have experienced many of the manefestations of the Holy Spirit.
You would not be able to see the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit, since
then you would in fact be seeing Jesus. For the same reason you can not
directly see the Father. If you think you see the Father, you are
actually seeing Jesus, who demonstrates the Father to us.
One of the first introductions to the Holy Spirit manefesting Himself,
was in 1970 I was visiting a church in Portland, that I was not
familiar with. I was standing in the congregation, and not sure about
what was going on. I turned and looked back to see what appeared to be
long flames of fire swirling above the congregation as they worshiped.
The best I can describe them is like the northern lights, except inside
the building. I had never seen anything like this, and was certainly
not expecting what I was seeing. This was before lazer light shows, of
which even the best would pale in comparison. The Pastor came up to me
afterward and said, "You saw Him also didn't you! It is always
wonderful to see Him move over the Congregation!" Bible Tempel, Pastor
Dick Iverson. 1970
At the same time a man started speaking in tongues, which again I was
not very familiar with, and certainly had reservations about. But then
a little old Chinaman, probably in his 90s setting right behind me got
all excited, because the young man speaking in tongues, was speaking in
a dialect of Chinese that was unique to the village where this old man
had left as a young person. The village was wiped out by the communist,
and the language died. He never expected to hear his mother tongue
again.
And I could tell you more wonderful stories, some even more wonderful!
Now again, what is your evidence that He is invisible? or imaginary? no
god, or no God?
I am telling you it is impossible to disprove what is only in your
mind. You
can obviously conjure up a belief in any supernatural thingamajig you
want,
and I can't disprove it.
This stuff, was happening in real life, with others present, sometimes
believers, sometimes those who did not want to believe what they were
seeing. If necessary, they could be documented as evidence. Though I
expect the old Chinaman is with Jesus in Glory now! There was no
conjuring up belief as you must do to believe what you say you believe
based on Blind Faity. What I believe, is based on what I have seen and
heard and experienced myself. You are right, you can not disprove it
but not for the reason you give for which you have no evidence, But
because there is a God who loves us and made His Love known to us when
He sent Jesus into this world to die for us, so that we can Live by the
power of the Holy Spirit, that now lives in us even as Jesus lived on
earth 2000 years ago. This God is beyond proof, did not prove Himself
as Jesus when Jesus was on the earth, though many pressed Him for proof
of who He is. He told them to consider what they were seeing and
hearing of His Ministry.
Now if you choose to shut your eyes, not only do you have Blind Faith,
but you are in effect blind. True Christianity is not based on Blind
Faith, or that proverbial leap into the dark, but Christianity is a
step into the light!
Your first question that you ask, though was more
interesting,
"what
would be the basis for saying that I am wrong?" Now this is
something
that we could look into.
The basis has to do with the evidence of the claim. Evidence
can
be
examined, and compared, and measured, and introduced as
evidence
of
a
claim. The claim itself may be the figment of someones mind
where
we
can't go except indirectly by evidence. You have yet to
provide
any
evidence for any of your claims, so I will allow you to
present
whatever evidence you have as a basis of whatever claim you
would
like
to make! Respectfully TnT
No evidence is required for a religious belief system.
But evidence can be piled high that there is God, and He loves us. What
we do with that evidence, may be a religion, or it may be running from
God from whom there is not escape. C.S. Lewis, described God as the
Hound of Heaven. He hunts us down, and will never give up on hounding
us. Religion does not require evidence as evidenced by all that have
none. But To have a relationship with God, we need to know what the
house rules are, since He owns the House, and makes the rules.
Since it is founded
in belief in a supernatural being, there is no evidence. The
belief
exists
only in the imagination.
This would be true if your goddess is Oprah, or any other pretender,
but if the God is the real God, then don't make the mistake of so many
in ages past.
If I truly believed Oprah to be a supreme being,
the evidence for this would be no more or no less than your own
belief in your own supreme being.
Unless you are trully and sincerely wrong!
"I still have no idea where you think godtalk and religion
depart."
You made this statement above, and considering it with your last
series
of comments about the basis of a person's faith in God, I begin
to get
a better idea of what you belive about religion, and Godtalk, as
I
summarize below in the next paragraph..
God is an invisible man, the product of an over-active
imagination.
Religion is the worship practice of the man with the over-active
imagination that believes in the invisible man. Because the man
is
invisible, it is really god who is invisible, and so there is no
evidence to support the belief of the invisible man being god.
Since
there is no evidence to establish the claims that the invisible
man is
God, their is no point looking for evidence that is not there.
If
evidence were provided, at best it is evidence of an over-active
imagination, imagining an imaginary invisible man/God, so the
evidence
is not even worth any serious consideration, since it could not
be
truly evidence of God, since God is invisible and only exist in
the
imagination of a particular mans mind, and not in real life,
now, or
ever before, or in the future. In real life, god is just the
product of
an over-active imagination, and so there are not real life
examples or
expressions of God in real life. So any talk about God is
unnecessary
and unproductive, and any talk about religion is basically the
same,
and of very little difference. Since there is little difference,
they
are essentially the same, and since there is no evidence to
support
either one as being necessary and productive, there is little
need, to
seriously consider either one, and the lack of supporting
evidence only
provides proof that there is no reason to believe in God as
anything
other than the product of an over-active imagination. So since
there is
no evidence for a basis for Godtalk and religion, there is no
need to
have a basis for Godtalk and religion, and hence any god is Ok
for
someone, if that is what they choose, though there is no
evidence,
because evidence is not necessary. Not only is evidence not
necessary,
but it is undesirable, since it would tend to point to
authenticating
the claims of one particular man about his imaginary god, over
the
equally unvalidated claims of another about his imaginary god,
and
since all imaginary gods are of equal value, non-value, then
having
evidence that supports one god over another is undesirable
because it
biases men's imagination. You choose not to provide any evidence
to
support your claims because it would be unnecessary and
undesirable.
You do not endorse one god over another, and each person is
welcome to
their own imaginary God, since it really does not make any
difference
at all. You can not prove what is in the mind of a man, and
since there
is no evidence to believe in a particular God, then you can
believe in
any one of them or none of them for equal benefit. You can not
prove
what each imagines in his mind about his god, and the evidence
that
forms that basis of belief is non existant, and unnecessary, and
undesirable, so you choose to not believe in any particular god
since
he is invisible and imaginary. Which gets me back to where I
started
this paragraph.
How am I doing so far with understanding what you are saying?
TnT
Let me try giving an example:
A manager claims that the bank is robbed, but in actuality there
was no
robbery. The police show up and look for evidence. Because the
robbery
is just in the mind of the manager, there can be no evidence of
a
robbery. Any evidence that is found may be evidence of something
happening, but it could not be evidence of a bank robbery. The
police
not wanting to look inept, bag and classify a lot of evidence,
and work
on building a case. They may even come up with a description of
the
imaginary robber. Now the banker may feel safer with all the
police
around, and the police feel good because they are hot on the
trail to
solve a case, and the imaginary robber feels good because he
will never
get caught. He becomes known as the invisible bank robber,
because
there is never any evidence left at any of the hundreds of banks
he has
held up. We as consumers can know that our money is safe because
of all
the police protection, and the adequate security measures that
the bank
manager has in place to protect our money. Any future robbery
the
police don't look for evidence, since they know there won't be
any left
at the crime scene, and evetually they may even stop coming at
the
sound of the burglar alarm. But the manager is ok with that
since he
has never lost any of the money entrusted to him. And the robber
is
happy because the police have released 100s of pictures of him,
and not
one is close, but it really does not matter because any one of
them
will do, since he is the invisible robber.
All this works out just fine until there is a real robbery at
the bank.
The bank manager has now lost alot of money, the police don't
come, and
the real robber gets away with no good description because
everyone
thought he was the invisible bank robber.
So truth in reporting, evidence, and valid descriptions does
matter in
RL and in Godtalk! Maybe not in religion, which is where the two
depart, since there are plenty of religions without any of the
above,
that men trust to be led by the invisible god. Personally I
prefer the
visible God who makes Himself known to them who seek Him! TnT
Er. But he/she still only exists in your imagination, just like
the
robbery that never happened.
You may think that He only exists in my imagination, but you do so to
your own loss. Search for Him yourself, on your own before you decide
what I am imagining when you have no idea what I am thinking about,
unless you really are god as I suggested that you may think yourself to
be, and so you practice religion..
The fact that you could contrive a lie, get people to believe it,
and
change their behaviour as a result is not in dispute. That's
exactly what
religion is.
and politics, and education, and multitude of other scams that have
been perpetrated on mankind for the advantage of a few.
Correct. Deity belief systems are among this multitude of scams. Only
it is
even worse than politics, because a religious person can do or say
anything
they want and put the blame on what "god" told them to do.
God gets blamed for all kinds of things, and those who don't pretend to
believe in God, hinge every thing they say on that. Does not mean that
either is right or wrong, just depends on the supporting evidence.
This is true, and that is why we are told to check out their Fruit. The
Fruit of the Holy Spirit, is the evidence that shows that they know
God. We are specifically cautioned about those who come in like a wolf,
to kill and destroy and deceive. But alas people continue to fall for
the scams.
Deity belief systems have undoubtedly been used by unscrupulous men,
but only because as counterfieters, they recognize the value of the
real currency. No counterfeiter copies money that is of no value. The
value of the deity belief system is the deity behind the system. That
men corrupt the system, is due to the nature of man, and not of God.
And that is why I am interested in talking about something that
goes
beyond religion! TnT
Good luck. You haven't managed it yet.
No, you keep wanting to discuss religion, but we will get there, I have
all eternity!
TnT