BoatBanter.com - View Single Post - Bill Moyers on environment, politics and Christian fundamentalists

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/21/05 9:26 PM:

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
in article
,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/21/05 12:53 AM:

KMAN wrote:
...snip...
....snip... I snipped a big passage out since we have been around that
merry-go-round a few times, dig it out if there is something I missed
that you wanted to comment on!

I assure you that there is God

I assure you that there is no god.

And You base this conclusion on exactly what fact or
observation?

....snip...
Whatever you are experiencing, as soon as you express it as a
religious belief system (as you are doing) you are practicing
religion.

Even as you do with your atheism and agnostism, you are
practicing
religion!

I'm not practicing any religion, Tinkerntom.

Sure you are, both atheism and agnostism make comments about the
nature
of God, unless you are admitting that you can talk about the nature
of
God without getting into religion! Which is close to my contention,
though I allow myself at the same time to admit practicing religion
for
its own benefit. But they can be two different issues.

snip...

Can you prove me wrong!

And if you can't prove me wrong on this, how can you make the
quattum
leap about the universe and who manages it. And yet you offered no
real
proof of either statement.

As I've already stated, I can never prove wrong that which only
exists in
your imagination.

If, as a hypothetical, I imagine that Oprah is god, you cannot prove
me
wrong, Tinkerntom. Because that belief would exist only in my mind,
and only
I can choose not to believe that Oprah is god. You can offer no real
proof
that Oprah is not god.

...snip...

Your whole argument comes down to the statement "I assure you
that
there is no god."

...snip...

You made the statement that "I assure you that there is no god."
which
sure sounds like an arguement to me, granted with no real logic
or
support to make it, probably just another one of your
non-religious
statments of your faith!

Oh. That was just one line out of all that we've written. I was
just
trying to show you how ridiculous your godtalk is.

But it was the most significant line that you said, that showed the
lack of substance for your position on this and other subjects
contained in this discussion. It is basic to your position about
religion, if there is no God, then religion is a joke. If there is
God,
then all the rules change.

Just like if Oprah is god, all the rules change.

Or, one can accept - or even embrace - reality.

I've illustrated for you that your belief system is 100%
consistent with a mainstream understanding of what religion means.

You continue to deny that you are a religious practitioner, for
whatever
reasons. And that's the only argument I'm aware of.

I have said we all practice some form of religion, and that
includes
me, I have no argument with you on that issue. But that is not
the
issue I have been desiring to look into. If you reject the search
for
God, because some practitioner of religion offended you at
sometime, so
that you can now not see God, that is your issue, and one you
continue
to bring up.

Huh?

Thats my line, regarding your persistant cluelessness, and
continuing to
bring up religion.

I still have no idea where you think godtalk and religion depart.

You have a belief system that incorporates worship of a supernatural
being.
That's a religion. When you talk about your belief system, that's
talking
about religion. It's just basic logic.

I maintain that it is possible and extremely worthwhile
and beneficial and exciting to search for and find God apart from
religious practice. You have your arguement, and I have mine, and
apparently the two do not have much in common.

I wasn't making any argument along those lines.

I'm just explaining to you that your godtalk is religious, and you
are
trying to deny it for some reason. I'm not out to convince you to
give up
your faith. I don't care what people want to imagine. If they use
what
they imagine as an excuse to harm others, I'll likely speak out
against
it, but hey, if I meet someone who tells me they believe the world
is
managed by a giant omnipotent invisible frog, I wouldn't spend one
minute trying to convince them otherwise.

As I acknowledged that often God talk is religious, but not
necessarily
so, and that is what I would like to achieve is to leave behind
petty
religion, and find and tap in to what God is!

Good luck. I haven't seen anything like that from you.

I leave petty religion behind through the understanding that god is a
conceptual tool utilized by many religious belief systems to create
an
unaccountable foundation for the establishment of doctrines that
allow for
the control of followers.

There's no point arguing with you about whether or not there is
a god,
because She only exists in your imagination and I obviously
can't prove
to you that what you imagine to be real is in fact unreal.

I ask you what is the basis for your statement? TnT

I did not ask you to prove what is in my mind, I ask you to
support
what is in yours. You said there is no God, support your
statment.

In the same way that I have decided the earth is not made of cream
cheese,
as explained above.

The same basis for saying there is no "x" whatever x may be.

That is profound, we should publish a book about that. I am sure
one
copy would sell. If that is the depth of your intellectual
curiosity
or thought process, enjoy wading around in the kiddy pool, stay
away
from the deep end! And this is the basis for your religion?

I do not practice any religion. Unless not believing that the
earth
is made of cream cheese is a religion.

Now you are blathering!

Nope, quite logical.

If not believing in god is a religion, then so too is not believing
that the
earth is made of cream cheese.

Huh!

If I tell you that Oprah Winfrey is a Goddess and that She and
She alone
controls your life, Tinkerntom, what would be the basis for
saying that
I am wrong?

Now I warned you about going to the deep end, and yet you still
ask!
Are you really sure you want to go there? TnT

Yup, let's go for it Tinkerntom.

As of today, I believe Oprah is the physical manifestation of the
true supreme beying. Prove me wrong!

I was not offering to prove or disprove what is in your mind

Now you are getting it. Amazing, just when I thought all was lost.

I cannot disprove what is in your mind either.

Only the difference is I don't actually believe in a supreme being.

even as stated above, "I did not ask you to prove what is in my
mind, I ask you to support what is in yours. You said there is no
God, support
your statment."

As you just said, I cannot prove or disprove what is in your mind.

Now you make the equally absurd statement that Oprah is a Goddess

I actually doubt I am the only person to ever describe her as such,
even
though I was doing so only for hypothetical purposes.

which again is a figment of your mind

A hypothetical figment. Wherease you really believe that your
supernatural
being is real.

and I would again ask you to support that

Nono, you have to prove that Oprah is not god, in the same way you
asked me
to disprove your god.

You prove to me that you have any basis for the claim,
then I will make counter-claims. What evidence are you providing
for
your claim about Oprah? Do you now believe that God is? You have
some
inside info that Oprah is God? Please share it! What is the nature
of
this God that uniquely identifies her as God. I have never seen any
such evidence, and as far as I know, she does not make the claim
for
herself. So if you only make the claim with no support, no
evidence, no
corobborating statements by God, what is the basis of your Faith,
or is
it Blind Faith? The ravings of a lunatic?

It's a hypothetical. If I were to truly believe that Oprah is a
supreme
being, can you prove me wrong?

Please don't get bent out of shape thinking that I am calling you a
lunatic, unless you believe what you said, which I don't think you
do!
You were making the statements for the benefit of discussion, and I
make mine as a reaction to the absurd proposal as if it was for
real.

It's not very absurd, Tinkerntom. Much less absurd than your belief
in an
invisible man.

Your first question that you ask, though was more interesting,
"what
would be the basis for saying that I am wrong?" Now this is
something
that we could look into.

The basis has to do with the evidence of the claim. Evidence can be
examined, and compared, and measured, and introduced as evidence of
a
claim. The claim itself may be the figment of someones mind where
we
can't go except indirectly by evidence. You have yet to provide any
evidence for any of your claims, so I will allow you to present
whatever evidence you have as a basis of whatever claim you would
like
to make! Respectfully TnT

No evidence is required for a religious belief system. Since it is
founded
in belief in a supernatural being, there is no evidence. The belief
exists
only in the imagination. If I truly believed Oprah to be a supreme
being,
the evidence for this would be no more or no less than your own
belief in
your own supreme being.

I still have no idea where you think godtalk and religion depart