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Bill Moyers on environment, politics and Christian fundamentalists
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KMAN
Posts: n/a
in article
, Tinkerntom
at
wrote on 3/21/05 9:26 PM:
KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN wrote:
in article
,
Tinkerntom
at
wrote on 3/21/05 12:53 AM:
KMAN wrote:
...snip...
Tinkerntom. So I'm not sure why you think your religious
belief system is somehow disctinct from "what is usually
passed off as religion."
...snip...
yawn
The dictionary definition is a reflection of a common
understanding of the meaning of the word "religion."
You seem to be saying that your particular god blather is
not
"religion." I am pointing out that it seems to fit pretty
well
with
what most people would describe as a religion.
...snip...
You could address points instead of skipping over them. The key
would
be to
skip the preambles and epilogues, which generally contain
nothing
but
senseless blather.
...snip...
All I can say to you KMAN, is that I am speaking of
something
that goes beyond religion.
Since religion involves belief in the supernatural, you
must
be
WAY OUT THERE to go beyond that, Tinkerntom!
I am not interested in religion per se; belief in,
reverence for, personal or institutional system, even if
grounded
in belief or worship, according to your text book
definition.
All
these thing are things that man is doing
Right. A man like Tinkerntom. And I think he's about to do
it
again. Notice how he won't be able to see the hypocrisy in
this.
Was I right?
And notice that you are still thinking in terms of what man is
doing,
Religion! And are not able to open your eyes to see the
possibility
of
what God is doing independent of man and religion! That is not
hypocritical, or a surprise, for someone that is blind and
clueless.
Not that there was not a time, I was any different than you,
so I
understand, and I do not say these things to be mean or
hateful
towards
you!
Oh, I agree, I don't think it's necessarily about being mean or
hateful to
what is around you, but more of an expression of the mean and
hate
that is
inside of you.
Well I can discount this statement as being self serving, on
your
part,
because you don't know me to know what is inside of me. You are
just
expressing your preconceived ideas against religion, which is
not
what
I am talking about anyway.
I'm not talking about my "ideas against religion" either.
Of course you are, but that that is another issue as well!
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, I've seen enough from
you
to
understand that you often use your belief system as a passive
aggressive
weapon.
My snipping was based on your request to "skip the preambles and
epilogues." I tried to leave your core statements, along with mine
to
see where they led. They apparently led to my internal "expression
of
the mean and hate that is inside of you (me)", at least as you see
it.
No, it has absolutely nothing to do with snipping, you are off on a
wild
tangent.
I don't see where I have said anything mean and hateful to you
about
anything that would indicate any passive aggressive hostility
towards
you. If you are feeling some hostility, I would suggest that it is
self
generated on your part to coincide with your preconceived ideas
about
religion, and people who practice religion, and are willing to talk
about religion.
LOL. That was passive aggressive/hostile right there Tinkerntom!
I'd suggest studying your own patterns of godtalk. You tend to get
most
preachy when you are on the defensive.
You have attempted to shoehorn what I am saying into your
definition of
religion, and when the shoe doesn't fit, you can't convict, wait
that
was a glove!
There's no shoehorn required. Taking any standard understanding of
what
religion is, and your belief system fits perfectly.
I have agreed all along that there is a man sized element of
religion
Right. You are a man talking about god. That's religion.
often, when man talks about God. But what I have also said is that
I
would like to get beyond the elements of religion to talk about God
and
what He is doing that would be of interest to us.
And you chose to ignore the "often, when man talks about God", Because
you assert that whenever man talks about God it is religion and
religion is all about power and control , and hence bad, so talking
about God is all about power and control, and hence bad. Not at all
sublime and spiritual, and worth your sincere attention. I would submit
that this is passive agressive on your part!
I have many deeply religious friends, Tinkerntom, including a nun. There are
definitely different ways of talking about god. First and foremost, my
friends and I share mutual respect.
One form of disrespect involves godtalk where the religified person applies
their religion to the non-religified person - for example, a religified
person insisting on blathering about how their god loves the non-religified
person.
The fact that your argument always seems to get back to religion
What argument are you speaking of? It would really help me if you would tell
me what it is you think I am arguing.
indicates to me an subliminal fear of sincerely searching for God
No more than my subliminal fear of searching for cream cheese at the centre
of the earth.
because you know that you will not like what you find, and that it will
contradict everything else you say you believe.
Uh, like what? Like, the earth is not flat? What?
I'm not sure how you can be a man proselytizing your particular
belief
system about a supernatural being and get "beyond religion" because,
well,
you'll be practicing religion.
Apparently you are
not able to make that shift of thinking
I'm not sure. Perhaps one could say I am beyond religion in that,
well, I'm
beyond it.
and evidently it is of no
interest to you! All you seem to want to talk about is religion, I
want
to talk about God!
Talking about god *is* religion.
But since you don't know anything about God, then I
should not be surprised if all you know to talk about is religion.
So
we are like two ships passing in the dark, going separate
directions,
with little in common.
Perhaps, but the major issue is actually your need to differentiate
your
godtalk from religion, when clearly it is one in the same.
...snip...
I just know there is a greater reality beyond
religion, if you can't see it, who's blind? If you hear yapping,
you
may be hard of hearing as well! That we all practice some form
of
religion is not the question either.
I do not practice any form of religion.
Of course you do, Atheism and Agnostism are both religions that
take a
step of blind faith as you demonstrate below.
You are off your nut.
Understanding that the earth is not made of cream cheese and
believing that
the universe is managed by an invisible being are two vastly
different
things, Tinkerntom.
I assure you that there is God
I assure you that there is no god.
And You base this conclusion on exactly what fact or
observation?
The same method I use to conclude that the centre of the earth is
not
made
of cream cheese.
And that method is ... ?? Blind Faith!
Er. No. There's absolutely no evidence that the earth is made of
cream
cheese, and rational methods for exploring what the earth is made of
do not
lend themselves to a theory of a core made of cream cheese.
...snip...
Whatever you are experiencing, as soon as you express it as a
religious belief system (as you are doing) you are practicing
religion.
Even as you do with your atheism and agnostism, you are practicing
religion!
I'm not practicing any religion, Tinkerntom.
Sure you are, both atheism and agnotism make comments about the nature
of God, unless you are admitting that you can talk about the nature of
God without getting into religion! Which is close to my contention,
though I allow myself at the same time to admit practicing religion for
its own benefit. But they can be two different issues.
My dad, as a geophysicist, and involved in the developement of the
theory of Plate Tectonic, described the earth as having the consistancy
of Butter, due to the extreme pressure and heat involved at depths
beyond the crust. This spinning gob of butter, has spun itself into a
speroid, buldging at the equator due to the spinning action. Tidal
waves that affect the ocean, equally affect the "solid" land pushing it
this way and that. The core is not hard, but very fluid. He maintained
that the hydrocarbons we call oil, were primarily stellar in origin,
and trapped at the time of coalesence of the Earth. They have been
working their way to the surface where they were trapped by subsurface
rock formations. All this means that you are right, it is not cream
cheese, its Butter! Like the ad says. Can you prove me wrong!
And if you can't prove me wrong on this, how can you make the quattum
leap about the universe and who manages it. And yet you offered no real
proof of either statement.
As I've already stated, I can never prove wrong that which only exists in
your imagination.
If, as a hypothetical, I imagine that Oprah is god, you cannot prove me
wrong, Tinkerntom. Because that belief would exist only in my mind, and only
I can choose not to believe that Oprah is god. You can offer no real proof
that Oprah is not god.
...snip...
Your whole argument comes down to the statement "I assure you
that
there is no god."
...snip...
You made the statement that "I assure you that there is no god."
which
sure sounds like an arguement to me, granted with no real logic or
support to make it, probably just another one of your non-religious
statments of your faith!
Oh. That was just one line out of all that we've written. I was just
trying
to show you how ridiculous your godtalk is.
But it was the most significant line that you said, that showed the
lack of substance for your position on this and other subjects
contained in this discussion. It is basic to your position about
religion, if there is no God, then religion is a joke. If there is God,
then all the rules change.
Just like if Oprah is god, all the rules change.
Or, one can accept - or even embrace - reality.
I've illustrated for you that your belief system is 100%
consistent
with a mainstream understanding of what religion means.
You continue to deny that you are a religious practitioner, for
whatever
reasons. And that's the only argument I'm aware of.
I have said we all practice some form of religion, and that
includes
me, I have no argument with you on that issue. But that is not the
issue I have been desiring to look into. If you reject the search
for
God, because some practitioner of religion offended you at
sometime, so
that you can now not see God, that is your issue, and one you
continue
to bring up.
Huh?
Thats my line, regarding your persistant cluelessness, and cotinuing to
bring up religion.
I still have no idea where you think godtalk and religion depart.
You have a belief system that incorporates worship of a supernatural being.
That's a religion. When you talk about your belief system, that's talking
about religion. It's just basic logic.
I maintain that it is possible and extremely worthwhile
and beneficial and exciting to search for and find God apart from
religious practice. You have your arguement, and I have mine, and
apparently the two do not have much in common.
I wasn't making any argument along those lines.
I'm just explaining to you that your godtalk is religious, and you
are
trying to deny it for some reason. I'm not out to convince you to
give up
your faith. I don't care what people want to imagine. If they use
what they
imagine as an excuse to harm others, I'll likely speak out against
it, but
hey, if I meet someone who tells me they believe the world is managed
by a
giant omnipotent invisible frog, I wouldn't spend one minute trying
to
convince them otherwise.
As I acknowledged that often God talk is religious, but not necessarily
so, and that is what I would like to achieve is to leave behind petty
religion, and find and tap in to what God is!
Good luck. I haven't seen anything like that from you.
I leave petty religion behind through the understanding that god is a
conceptual tool utilized by many religious belief systems to create an
unaccountable foundation for the establishment of doctrines that allow for
the control of followers.
There's no point arguing with you about whether or not there is a
god,
because She only exists in your imagination and I obviously can't
prove to
you that what you imagine to be real is in fact unreal.
I ask you what is the basis for your statement? TnT
I did not ask you to prove what is in my mind, I ask you to support
what is in yours. You said there is no God, support your statment.
In the same way that I have decided the earth is not made of cream
cheese,
as explained above.
The same basis for saying there is no "x" whatever x may be.
That is profound, we should publish a book about that. I am sure
one
copy would sell. If that is the depth of your intellectual
curiosity
or thought process, enjoy wading around in the kiddy pool, stay
away
from the deep end! And this is the basis for your religion?
I do not practice any religion. Unless not believing that the earth
is made
of cream cheese is a religion.
Now you are blathering!
Nope, quite logical.
If not believing in god is a religion, then so too is not believing that the
earth is made of cream cheese.
If I tell you that Oprah Winfrey is a Goddess and that She and She
alone
controls your life, Tinkerntom, what would be the basis for saying
that I
am wrong?
Now I warned you about going to the deep end, and yet you still
ask!
Are you really sure you want to go there? TnT
Yup, let's go for it Tinkerntom.
As of today, I believe Oprah is the physical manifestation of the
true
supreme beying. Prove me wrong!
I was not offering to prove or disprove what is in your mind
Now you are getting it. Amazing, just when I thought all was lost.
I cannot disprove what is in your mind either.
Only the difference is I don't actually believe in a supreme being.
even as
stated above, "I did not ask you to prove what is in my mind, I ask you
to support
what is in yours. You said there is no God, support your statment."
As you just said, I cannot prove or disprove what is in your mind.
Now you make the equally absurd statement that Oprah is a Goddess
I actually doubt I am the only person to ever describe her as such, even
though I was doing so only for hypothetical purposes.
which again is a figment of your mind
A hypothetical figment. Wherease you really believe that your supernatural
being is real.
and I would again ask you to support that
Nono, you have to prove that Oprah is not god, in the same way you asked me
to disprove your god.
You prove to me that you have any basis for the claim,
then I will make counter-claims. What evidence are you providing for
your claim about Oprah? Do you now believe that God is? You have some
inside info that Oprah is God? Please share it! What is the nature of
this God that uniquely identifies her as God. I have never seen any
such evidence, and as far as I know, she does not make the claim for
herself. So if you only make the claim with no support, no evidence, no
corobborating statements by God, what is the basis of your Faith, or is
it Blind Faith? The ravings of a lunatic?
It's a hypothetical. If I were to truly believe that Oprah is a supreme
being, can you prove me wrong?
Please don't get bent out of shape thinking that I am calling you a
lunatic, unless you believe what you said, which I don't think you do!
You were making the statements for the benefit of discussion, and I
make mine as a reaction to the absurd proposal as if it was for real.
It's not very absurd, Tinkerntom. Much less absurd than your belief in an
invisible man.
Your first question that you ask, though was more interesting, "what
would be the basis for saying that I am wrong?" Now this is something
that we could look into.
The basis has to do with the evidence of the claim. Evidence can be
examined, and compared, and measured, and introduced as evidence of a
claim. The claim itself may be the figment of someones mind where we
can't go except indirectly by evidence. You have yet to provide any
evidence for any of your claims, so I will allow you to present
whatever evidence you have as a basis of whatever claim you would like
to make! Respectfully TnT
No evidence is required for a religious belief system. Since it is founded
in belief in a supernatural being, there is no evidence. The belief exists
only in the imagination. If I truly believed Oprah to be a supreme being,
the evidence for this would be no more or no less than your own belief in
your own supreme being.
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