"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/21/05 12:53 AM:
KMAN wrote:
...snip...
Tinkerntom. So I'm not sure why you think your religious
belief system is somehow disctinct from "what is usually
passed off as religion."
...snip...
yawn
The dictionary definition is a reflection of a common
understanding of the meaning of the word "religion."
You seem to be saying that your particular god blather is not
"religion." I am pointing out that it seems to fit pretty well
with
what most people would describe as a religion.
...snip...
You could address points instead of skipping over them. The key
would
be to
skip the preambles and epilogues, which generally contain nothing
but
senseless blather.
...snip...
All I can say to you KMAN, is that I am speaking of something
that goes beyond religion.
Since religion involves belief in the supernatural, you must
be
WAY OUT THERE to go beyond that, Tinkerntom!
I am not interested in religion per se; belief in,
reverence for, personal or institutional system, even if
grounded
in belief or worship, according to your text book definition.
All
these thing are things that man is doing
Right. A man like Tinkerntom. And I think he's about to do it
again. Notice how he won't be able to see the hypocrisy in
this.
Was I right?
And notice that you are still thinking in terms of what man is
doing,
Religion! And are not able to open your eyes to see the
possibility
of
what God is doing independent of man and religion! That is not
hypocritical, or a surprise, for someone that is blind and
clueless.
Not that there was not a time, I was any different than you, so I
understand, and I do not say these things to be mean or hateful
towards
you!
Oh, I agree, I don't think it's necessarily about being mean or
hateful to
what is around you, but more of an expression of the mean and hate
that is
inside of you.
Well I can discount this statement as being self serving, on your
part,
because you don't know me to know what is inside of me. You are
just
expressing your preconceived ideas against religion, which is not
what
I am talking about anyway.
I'm not talking about my "ideas against religion" either.
Of course you are, but that that is another issue as well!
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, I've seen enough from you
to
understand that you often use your belief system as a passive
aggressive
weapon.
My snipping was based on your request to "skip the preambles and
epilogues." I tried to leave your core statements, along with mine to
see where they led. They apparently led to my internal "expression of
the mean and hate that is inside of you (me)", at least as you see it.
No, it has absolutely nothing to do with snipping, you are off on a wild
tangent.
I don't see where I have said anything mean and hateful to you about
anything that would indicate any passive aggressive hostility towards
you. If you are feeling some hostility, I would suggest that it is self
generated on your part to coincide with your preconceived ideas about
religion, and people who practice religion, and are willing to talk
about religion.
LOL. That was passive aggressive/hostile right there Tinkerntom!
I'd suggest studying your own patterns of godtalk. You tend to get most
preachy when you are on the defensive.
You have attempted to shoehorn what I am saying into your definition of
religion, and when the shoe doesn't fit, you can't convict, wait that
was a glove!
There's no shoehorn required. Taking any standard understanding of what
religion is, and your belief system fits perfectly.
I have agreed all along that there is a man sized element of religion
Right. You are a man talking about god. That's religion.
often, when man talks about God. But what I have also said is that I
would like to get beyond the elements of religion to talk about God and
what He is doing that would be of interest to us.
I'm not sure how you can be a man proselytizing your particular belief
system about a supernatural being and get "beyond religion" because, well,
you'll be practicing religion.
Apparently you are
not able to make that shift of thinking
I'm not sure. Perhaps one could say I am beyond religion in that, well, I'm
beyond it.
and evidently it is of no
interest to you! All you seem to want to talk about is religion, I want
to talk about God!
Talking about god *is* religion.
But since you don't know anything about God, then I
should not be surprised if all you know to talk about is religion. So
we are like two ships passing in the dark, going separate directions,
with little in common.
Perhaps, but the major issue is actually your need to differentiate your
godtalk from religion, when clearly it is one in the same.
...snip...
I just know there is a greater reality beyond
religion, if you can't see it, who's blind? If you hear yapping,
you
may be hard of hearing as well! That we all practice some form of
religion is not the question either.
I do not practice any form of religion.
Of course you do, Atheism and Agnostism are both religions that take a
step of blind faith as you demonstrate below.
You are off your nut.
Understanding that the earth is not made of cream cheese and believing that
the universe is managed by an invisible being are two vastly different
things, Tinkerntom.
I assure you that there is God
I assure you that there is no god.
And You base this conclusion on exactly what fact or observation?
The same method I use to conclude that the centre of the earth is not
made
of cream cheese.
And that method is ... ?? Blind Faith!
Er. No. There's absolutely no evidence that the earth is made of cream
cheese, and rational methods for exploring what the earth is made of do not
lend themselves to a theory of a core made of cream cheese.
...snip...
Whatever you are experiencing, as soon as you express it as a
religious belief system (as you are doing) you are practicing
religion.
Even as you do with your atheism and agnostism, you are practicing
religion!
I'm not practicing any religion, Tinkerntom.
Sorry that bothers you.
You and the pope are in the same business. He just has a
fancier car.
I'm sure he does, though I did not know the pope is a locksmith!
Golly
you learn something new every day!
I took the liberty to do some snipping, if there is something you
want
to discuss further, let me know.
Your whole argument comes down to the statement "I assure you that
there is no god."
What argument is that?
At least we agree here, you present no argument that is sound enough
for you to be able to recognize even as an arguement that you are
arguing for anything!
See below.
I'm not sure what you think I am arguing. The only "argument" I am
aware of
here is that you are espousing your religious beliefs and trying to
deny
that you are doing so.
You made the statement that "I assure you that there is no god." which
sure sounds like an arguement to me, granted with no real logic or
support to make it, probably just another one of your non-religious
statments of your faith!
Oh. That was just one line out of all that we've written. I was just trying
to show you how ridiculous your godtalk is.
I've illustrated for you that your belief system is 100% consistent
with a
mainstream understanding of what religion means.
You continue to deny that you are a religious practitioner, for
whatever
reasons. And that's the only argument I'm aware of.
I have said we all practice some form of religion, and that includes
me, I have no argument with you on that issue. But that is not the
issue I have been desiring to look into. If you reject the search for
God, because some practitioner of religion offended you at sometime, so
that you can now not see God, that is your issue, and one you continue
to bring up.
Huh?
I maintain that it is possible and extremely worthwhile
and beneficial and exciting to search for and find God apart from
religious practice. You have your arguement, and I have mine, and
apparently the two do not have much in common.
I wasn't making any argument along those lines.
I'm just explaining to you that your godtalk is religious, and you are
trying to deny it for some reason. I'm not out to convince you to give up
your faith. I don't care what people want to imagine. If they use what they
imagine as an excuse to harm others, I'll likely speak out against it, but
hey, if I meet someone who tells me they believe the world is managed by a
giant omnipotent invisible frog, I wouldn't spend one minute trying to
convince them otherwise.
There's no point arguing with you about whether or not there is a
god,
because She only exists in your imagination and I obviously can't
prove to
you that what you imagine to be real is in fact unreal.
I ask you what is the basis for your statement? TnT
I did not ask you to prove what is in my mind, I ask you to support
what is in yours. You said there is no God, support your statment.
In the same way that I have decided the earth is not made of cream cheese,
as explained above.
The same basis for saying there is no "x" whatever x may be.
That is profound, we should publish a book about that. I am sure one
copy would sell. If that is the depth of your intellectual curiosity
or thought process, enjoy wading around in the kiddy pool, stay away
from the deep end! And this is the basis for your religion?
I do not practice any religion. Unless not believing that the earth is made
of cream cheese is a religion.
If I tell you that Oprah Winfrey is a Goddess and that She and She
alone
controls your life, Tinkerntom, what would be the basis for saying
that I am
wrong?
Now I warned you about going to the deep end, and yet you still ask!
Are you really sure you want to go there? TnT
Yup, let's go for it Tinkerntom.
As of today, I believe Oprah is the physical manifestation of the true
supreme beying. Prove me wrong!