BoatBanter.com - View Single Post - Bill Moyers on environment, politics and Christian fundamentalists

in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/20/05 8:56 PM:

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/20/05 4:53 AM:

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/20/05 2:54 AM:

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/19/05 9:22 PM:

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink opines:
=============
So we can still look forward to our little chats, about boats
and
faith. I prefer the personal approach, to enjoying life. A
website
just seems a little cold and impersonal. That is sort of like
fixing
something with a ten pound sledge, that needed a more delicate
touch!
I
hope some of you can appreciate my more delicate touch, I only
use
a
five pound sledge!
=============

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?

frtzw906

It's like this, I appreciate our conversations. The stimulation
is
good, and it forces me to consider some issues and how my faith
applies
to them in the market place of life. Not that you necessarily
get
me to
change my mind, or vice versus. But I have to freshen up my
faith
and
the expression of it. I hope that it has been stimulating to
you
as
well.

Rest assured that this is one of the main differences I feel
between
what I am saying, and what is usually passed off as religion
(visa-vis
Ron's approach), and which I believe KMAN and others have such
a
viseral reaction too.

First off, it is "visceral." Secondly, my "reaction" to religion
is
not
visceral, but rather based on obvservation and reasoned
conclusions
about
the functioning of religious belief systems and their real world
impact on
human beings.

A very standard dictionary definition of religion is:

"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers
regarded
as
creator and governor of the universe; a personal or
institutionalized
system
grounded in such belief and worship."

It seems to me that your god blather fits this definition rather
perfectly,
Tinkerntom. So I'm not sure why you think your religious belief
system is
somehow disctinct from "what is usually passed off as religion."

There you go correcting my spelling again

The important issue was not really the spelling.

but you seemed to know what
I was writing about. Now whether you agree with me or not, that
is
another issue.

I was disagreeing with you about my having a visceral reaction to
religion.

Even your definition of religion

It's not my definition, it's from the American Heritage Dictionary
of
the
English Language, Fourth Edition.

comes from your dictionary which may
be correct, but that is not what I am talking about, and I am
sure
you
haven't the foggiest Idea what I am speaking about. That you keep
trying to pound it into the religious mould, demonstrates your
complete
unawareness of a part of life that for all your observation and
reasoned conclusions, you are blind and clueless.

yawn

The dictionary definition is a reflection of a common
understanding
of the
meaning of the word "religion."

You seem to be saying that your particular god blather is not
"religion." I
am pointing out that it seems to fit pretty well with what most
people would
describe as a religion.

Did you understand this point Tom? I'm wondering why you skipped
through all
of this to make a rather vague comment at the end of the post.

You are the one that gets after me for my verbiage! So I kept it short,
are you asking me to say more now? If so here goes,....Had you worried
there for a second didn't I.

You could address points instead of skipping over them. The key would be to
skip the preambles and epilogues, which generally contain nothing but
senseless blather.

Reminds me of a story, a lexiographer, desiring to publish a new
dictionary, and in all fairness wanting to get unbiased
definitions
based on any preconceived perceptions, got to the word
"elephant".
He
decided to hire four blind guys to help develope a definition of
what
an elephant is like. So he placed one at the front, one at the
rear,
one underneath, and one on the back of the elephant, and ask them
to
describe what an elephant was like. Needless to say he got four
widely
different definitions.

Reminds me of a story. A lexographer, desiring to publish a new
dictionary,
and in all fairness wanting to get unbiased definitions not based
on
any
preconceived perceptions, got to the word "elephant". He decided
to
hire
four blind guys to help develop a definition of what an elephant
is
like.
So he placed one at the front, one at the rear, one underneath,
and
one on
the back of the elephant, and asked them to describe what an
elephant
was
like. Needless to say, all four of the blind guys through their
life
experience developed an understanding of what an elephant is.
Being
blind
but fully intellectually functional, each of them figured out what
parts
they were touching and although some of what they were touching
was a
bit
shocking, it did nothing to dissuade them from their understanding
that an
elephant is a really big freaking mammal. So, the lexographer
ended
up using
a definition of "elephant" that was very much like past
definitions
of
"elephant" which was fitting since elephants had really not
changed
much
since the word "elephant" was first associated with the big
freaking
mammals.

What did you think of that story Tinkerntom?

The point of my story, was not the definition, but the limited ability
of someone blind to see the whole picture from a limited vantage point.

I'd say the story fails to convey the point because it incorporates a
fundamental misunderstanding about how blind people acquire knowledge of the
world around them.

I contend that despite your dictionary, you are at a limited vantage
point, blind and clueless to what I am saying. By continuing to try to
understand what I am saying by referring to your dictionary definition
you only demostrate your blindness.

I'm simply pointing out to you that the general understanding of what a
religion is fits perfectly with your own expression of your own belief
system.

Your story, illustrates my point in that the blind men came up with
their definition of the elephant, based on the long held definition of
an elephant which they were already familiar with because elephants had
not changed very much, and though standing at different vantage points,
they know where they were standing in reference to the other parts of
the elephant.

But what kind of definiton is possible, when there is no prior adequate
understanding by someone that is blind? I pray that God would heal your
blindness!

You've just illustrated a non sequitur to absolute perfection.

All I can say to you KMAN, is that I am speaking of something
that
goes
beyond religion.

Since religion involves belief in the supernatural, you must be
WAY
OUT
THERE to go beyond that, Tinkerntom!

I am not interested in religion per se; belief in,
reverence for, personal or institutional system, even if grounded
in
belief or worship, according to your text book definition. All
these
thing are things that man is doing

Right. A man like Tinkerntom. And I think he's about to do it
again.
Notice
how he won't be able to see the hypocrisy in this.

Was I right?

And notice that you are still thinking in terms of what man is doing,
Religion! And are not able to open your eyes to see the possibility of
what God is doing independent of man and religion! That is not
hypocritical, or a surprise, for someone that is blind and clueless.
Not that there was not a time, I was any different than you, so I
understand, and I do not say these things to be mean or hateful towards
you!

Oh, I agree, I don't think it's necessarily about being mean or hateful to
what is around you, but more of an expression of the mean and hate that is
inside of you.

See Melissa, was correct, when she said, we put God in a box (religion)
and then limit what He can do by our particular box, or at least as far
as we are concerned. We limit Him to our words, phrases, and other
expressions of His activity. I am trying to see Him outside of the box,
and encourage other to seek Him, and see Him, and what He is doing as
well, without the limitations of the Box we call Religion.

Whatever She is doing, as soon as human beings start talking about what She
is doing as though they are representing Her in some way, what you've got,
Tinkerntom, is a religion.

Even your reference to "She" indicates not religious liberty on your
part, but just a different box. So though you protest you are not into
God or religion, you in fact acknowledge and practice both!

Obviously religion exists, Tinterntom. Having fun with how religified people
assign a gender to an omnipotent being and Capitalize it for Emphasis is not
evidence that I practice religion any more than givin you the finger is
evidence that I practice sign language.

Even if you
say I don't believe in God, that is a religion, with all the
accompaning practices, words and phrases!

What I say is that there is no god. Just as I say there are no two
snowflakes the same.

Just a different Box! You are
trapped, you can not get away from God! Even if you just ignore Him,
and don't talk about Him or protest in any way, He is still there very
near you! Now I agree, that could be creepy! That He loves you even
then, seems very strange! But then He is God!

It's a reality that I cannot escape religified discourse. But then I can't
escape gun nut discourse, racist discourse, etc and so on (and of course all
three of those go to together quite often). But fortunately I live in a time
and place where I can deal with it rather well.

and probably using for his own
power/control structure as you so consistantly point out, where
he
is
the big cheese, the top banana, the muckety-muck! That the rest
of
us
get to admire because he is so "spiritual" at least in his own
humble
opinion.

I am not interested in what man is doing, I am interested in
finding
out what God is doing! Now obviously if you don't believe in God
in
the
first place

Only because She doesn't exist.

then you don't believe He could be doing anything at all.

Approaching this issue in the hypothetical, whatever She's doing,
being an
omnipotent supernatural being and all, it's pretty clear to me
that
She'd do
whatever She wants to do, and ranting about Her on a kayaking
newsgroup
isn't going to impact on what She does. Since, after all, She is
more
powerful than Superman or even Oprah.

Or if you believe that there is a pan-theon of Gods, then you may
be
interested in what they are doing, but most likely, they are more
concerned with each other than mere mortals.

Um. If you say so.

However if there is a God, would it not be beneficial to know
what
He
is up to! If it is possible to know Him, and to see what He is
doing,
would that change how you look at life and respond to other
people,
and to Him. All the philosophical head games, word games,
annoyingly
cute games, that you play with yourself, and with others, become
meaningless, if He is, and we can know He is. Play your games in
life,
and here on RBP, if you want, but if He is, you are only screwing
yourself and depriving yourself of the greatest trip around!

Then again, maybe religion is a barrier to personal growth and
fuller
enjoyment of life.

Do you think that could be possible Tinkerntom?

Religion is definitely a barrier to all kinds of things, especially
knowing God, and that is why I am not interested in religion!

You espouse religion on this newsgroup just about every single day.

Religion is like going to a barbecue, and eating the gloves that were
worn to put the meat on the grill. They got smoky, and have some flavor
of the meat, but I want the steak! Man developed religion like the
gloves, to handle God, and manage the heat, and as you have pointed out
distribute the benefits (power and control) of the barbeque. I would
like to get beyond that and taste the real thing that God is about!

Well Tinkerntom, the only way I could see that being possible would be to
use whatever motivation that you get from your belief system and use it to
make the world a better place. But the minute you start yapping about god,
you are just another religious practioner, and I'm sorry it bothers you so
much that you ahve to try to deny that reality.

I assure you that there is God

I assure you that there is no god.

He loves you

So does my cat. Only my cat exists beyond Tinkerntom's
imagination.

and He will show Himself
to you if you honestly desire to know Him, TnT

My cat will show Himself to you for similar reasons.

Your spiel in this message was 100% stereotypical of the blather
of
every
promoter of every religion. Disappointing, Tinkerntom,
disappointing.

And your cluelessness is not surprising!

Perhaps not. What cluelessness are you referencing?

Tinkerntom, what cluelessness are you referencing?

"Since religion involves belief in the supernatural, you must be
WAY
OUT THERE to go beyond that, Tinkerntom!"

Right?

You said that your beliefs were beyond religion.

Given that religion involves belief in the supernatural, going beyond
must
be quite fantastical indeed!

The supernatural, is defined as beyond our understanding of the
natural. Still though in this universe, just that we do not understand
it.

God is from a dimension beyond this universe. Not a parallel universe,
where things are the same, but slightly shifted. But where there is no
time, and the dimensions that we are normally familiar with are non
existant. All that is a part of this universe will pass away someday.
Any parallel universe based on time will pass away, but the dimension
beyond time will continue to exist without beginning and without end.

Not that He can not come into this universe, as He has on many
ocassions, and continues to do so. We would describe those ocassions as
supernatural, for His existance is beyound time even when He appears
here in time.

I did not find myself going, it was not my doing, but I did find myself
dealing with God, beyond the scope of religion and beyond the normal
sense of time in this universe! And it is fantastic, and beyond the
mind of man to think or comprehend the Love of God, and what He has
prepared for us who believe.

You may console yourself that you do not believe in God or that you
have not gone over the edge like Tinkerntom, but, that does not change
that God is, and that He will reward those who search for Him, and that
He loves you!

You may be cute and clever about your cat, but you only deceive
yourself. If I persist in sharing with you my apparent lunacy as you
see it, it is for the Joy of Knowing God, and hoping that Joy could be
yours as well!

I should have known that despite several paragraphs of blather you were not
going to address the point at hand.

But you are beginning just maybe to get the hang of it a little!

That's great. What am I getting the hang of Tinkerntom?

That I am talking about something beyond religion

Sorry, you are mistaken. I'm more certain than ever that you are quite
solidly and boringly in the traditional religious camp. You might not be
proselytizing a specific religious institutional viewpoint, but your godtalk
is completely and utterly religious in nature.

what man is doing,
and to find out what God is doing! This is the most exciting treasure
hunt there is, if you care about treasure hunts?

The most exciting treausure hunt there is, for me, is supporting another
human being to achieve.

Even
Melissa in her recent e-mail got as close, and then turned away.
Check
her e-mail if you are interested, see what you can uncover. This is
getting fun again! TnT

OK?

Just OK? This is getting fun again, and you said Jesus freaks don't
know how to have fun! I love treasure hunts and solving mysteries! You
are aware of the etymology of the word "mysteries" ? in a theological
sense, "religious truth via divine revelation, mystical presence of
God,"

What man does with that mystical presence of God is Religion!

Right. And, unless you inform otherwise, you are a man. What you are doing
is religion.

What I desire, is to experience the presence! Two different things
entirely!

I apologize for the veribage, but you ask! TnT

Whatever you are experiencing, as soon as you express it as a religious
belief system (as you are doing) you are practicing religion. Sorry that
bothers you. You and the pope are in the same business. He just has a
fancier car.