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Bill Moyers on environment, politics and Christian fundamentalists
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KMAN
Posts: n/a
in article
, Tinkerntom
at
wrote on 3/7/05 12:35 AM:
KMAN wrote:
in article
,
Tinkerntom
at
wrote on 3/6/05 11:27 PM:
BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
And if this is so, and Jesus
is God, the same Holy God of the Old Testement, and even before
the
Old
Testement, the time of Cain and Abel, how could He not destroy us
all?
=============
I had a funny feeling I ought not t have gotten into this. I
wanted
JC's position on these issues (explained, as I understand it, in
the
New Testament). I have no desire to hear from Moses, Cain, Abel,
etc
and all those guys in the Old Testament. Can we not just hear from
that
hippy-dude JC?
I have no desire to play back-to-the-future and other games that
put
Genesis in the mouth of JC. I want to acknowledge an historical
figu
JC. I want to examine HIS teachings (and his specific words ONLY).
If
we can't do that, and if, somehow, this discussion has to go
before
Christmas Day, all bets are off.
Anyway, with what you've said to date, on the capital punishment
issue,
I'm happy to concede to you and fade off into the sunset with the
conclusion that this religion stuff is even creepier than I
imagined.
Evil. Mean-spirited. Vengeful. YIKES! Get me out of here!
frtzw906
frtwz, Do you fade so quickly from the race, the game just began?
We
are still figuring out the rules of the game.
I shared initially how JC handled the situation when the religious
people tried to trap Him into denying the civil law, and
specifically
the death penalty for the woman caught in adultery. He endorsed the
death penalty when he said " Let the stones fly", or something to
that
effect! That was from his mouth as a historical figure.
I also shared that His submission to the Roman civil law
illustrated
His compliance to the demand for justice by submitting to
crucification, which was the Roman way of exercising the death
penalty.
A tacit approval, but neverless approval.
Is there any other specific teaching of JC regarding capital
punishment
during his historical life that you are familiar with, and that I
am
missing, that you wanted to discuss. You say the New Testement,
and
then limit it further to His historical life, which would primarily
restrict the discussion to the 4 Gospels. . When you say "His
specific
word only", you seem to be wanting to get to a specific point. I
don't
know what that point is, so if you are, it would help if you would
make
it known.
If I am still missing the question, I apologize for being so dense,
and
can only encourage you to see if you can ask your question again. I
truly am not trying to deceive you, and would desire nothing more
than
to clearly understand your question, so that I could answer you as
clearly.
I tried playing JC in Washington now, and that was not what you
were
after either, so I am totally miffed as to how you want to play the
game.
As we quickly discovered, playing in the future, and in the past,
opens
up way to much of the playing field. So if you could restate your
questions with whatever limits you choose to put on it, I will see
what
I can come up with as an answer. No promises!
I was rereading your post, and read the following statement that
may be
a hint of where the block lies.
"I wanted JC's position on these issues (explained, as I understand
it,
in the New Testament)."
I don't know what you understand JCs position on these issues to
be, as
explained in the New Testament, and certainly not knowing your
understanding of the New Testament. Maybe if we started from your
position, and trying to understand what you say you understand the
New
Testament teaches that Jc's position is on these issues. Then I
could
either provide supporting evidence, contradictory evidence or at
least
clarifying scripture. TnT
Tinkerntom, ignoring the fact that the bible is a work of fiction and
that
only whackos look to use literal interpretations to inform real world
decisions, it was also written for the times. In the days of the Old
Testament, the idea that only the person who committed a murder would
be put
to death was very progressive, given that putting that person's
entire
family to death would not have been uncommon.
The New Testament takes things a step further and moves away from
"revenge"
as a central theme of justice.
In 2005 we have the ability to incarcerate someone for life, which
means
that state-sanctioned murder (known as capital punishment) is nothing
but an
act of vengeance/revenge.
If people feel the need to create mythology around deities, they
should at
least be honest about issues as important as capital punishment.
Anyone who
supports state-sanctioned murder does so because they want to kill,
not
because they think it is what "god" wants. If god wants to strike
someone
dead, surely he will manage it, without need of a human system of
justice
that favours poor people and minorities as its murder victims.
I suppose you will be forth coming with some evidence to support your
currently unsubstantiated statements and propositions? Understanding
how important it is to be making substantiated claims! TnT
Geezus Tinkerntom, the point is the point. God, being omnipotent and all,
would make perfect decisions about who to kill and why. Human beings are not
perfect. And their systems of justice are not perfect. The death penatly is
disproportionately imposed on the poor, minorities, and men. If you are a
poor person from a visibile minority who kills a white person, you've just
increased your odds substantially. Not to mention that the death penalty is
not reversible in the event of error. Most modern socities feel rather
strongly that state-sanctioned murder of an innocent person is just about as
bad as it gets when it comes to miscarriage of justice Tinkerntom. What say
you?
As for your need for evidence, what specifically are you looking for? Bear
in mind that what I am pointing out to you is that human systems of justice
are imperfect. Unless that is what you need for me to prove to you, I don't
think much else is important to the point I am making. If you want to learn
more about how the death penalty is applied unfairly (why you would not know
that is beyond me) let me know.
Here's a little something about it:
Since 1977, the overwhelming majority of death row defendants (over 80%)
have been executed for killing white victims, although African-Americans
make up about 50% percent of all homicide victims.
In a 1990 report, the non-partisan U.S. General Accounting Office found "a
pattern of evidence indicating racial disparities in the charging,
sentencing, and imposition of the death penalty." The study concluded that
a defendant was several times more likely to be sentenced to death if the
murder victim was white. This confirms the findings of many other studies
that, holding all other factors constant, the single most reliable
predictor of whether someone will be sentenced to death is the race of the
victim.
Underlying the statistical evidence is the differential treatment of
African-Americans at every turn. From initial charging decisions to plea
bargaining to jury sentencing, African-Americans are treated more harshly
when they are defendants, and their lives are accorded less value when
they are victims. Furthermore, all-white or virtually all-white juries
are still commonplace in many localities.
Racial Bias Facts:
A study of the city of Philadelphia found that, even after making allowances
for case differences, the odds of receiving a death sentence in Philadelphia
are nearly four times higher if the defendant is African-American. (David
Baldus, et al., Race Discrimination and the Death Penalty in the Post Furman
Era. Cornell Law Review, September 1998.)
In March 1998, Kentucky became the first state to pass a Racial Justice Act.
The Kentucky bill allows defendants in capital cases to use statistical
evidence of racial discrimination to show that race influenced the
decision to seek the death penalty. Should the judge find that race was a
factor, the death penalty would be barred. The U.S. House of
Representatives has passed a similar bill on two occasions, but it has
been defeated in the Senate.
In May 2002, Maryland Governor Glendening imposed a moratorium on executions
in his state because of concerns regarding the issue of racial bias in
Maryland's death penalty system. In Maryland, 67% of the people on death
row are African-American, the highest percentage of any state death row.
According to the Uniform Crime Report, in 1998, 81% of the state's
homicide victims were African American, yet 84% of death sentences
resulted from cases involving white victims.
A review of the federal death penalty by the Justice Department, released on
September 12, 2000, found numerous racial and geographic disparities. The
report revealed that 80% of the cases submitted by federal prosecutors
for death penalty review in the past five years have involved racial
minorities as defendants. In more than half of those cases, the defendant
was African-American.
"racial discrimination pervades the U.S. death penalty at every stage of
the process. There is only one way to eradicate ethnic bias, and the
echoes of racism, from death penalty procedures in the United States-and
this is by eradicating the death penalty itself." --Killing with Prejudice:
Race and the Death Penalty in the USA, Amnesty International, May 1999
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