You're right about many western boaters freaking out about rocks.
Personally I love them. They make the rapids fun and full of possibilities!

I don't know anything about class III and less generally rated by canoeist
and IV and V by kayakers. I haven't really paid that much attention to what
paddlers are rating what. I personally find that in a canoe or a kayak the
rapids seem about the same to me. In fact strangely enough, I find paddling
some class IV's in my canoe easier than in my kayak. Yet I've paddled V's
in my kayak but would never take my canoe on one. Don't ask me why because
really I don't know why. I know everyone is different but I can't see why
there would be a real difference between kayakers and canoeists and their
ratings? As I mentioned I personally find them to feel basically equal. I
can understand that I see more kayakers on class IV / V. Maybe that's it.
Can you expand on how you came to that?

Courtney

"riverman" wrote in message
...

"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...
I too noticed that the biggest change I found was between class III and
class IV. Another big change I noticed was when I moved from the east
coast
to the west coast. I had done a few big water runs in the east but they
seemed nothing like the one's in the west. To me, generally speaking,
west
coast big water class III feels like a class IV; whereas their
technical,
lower volume class IV feels like a class III. I've noticed in some of
the
western whitewater books they make mention if the river is a big water
run
which is exactly what I like to know. It would be nice if that could be
a
staple in all whitewater books.



Yes, your perceptions are right on, Courtney. The lines get blurry at the
edges.

The reason for disparity at the Class III, Class IV boundary is that class

I,II and III rapids are primarily rated by canoeists, as that's their
'specialty water' and they can really split hairs. Class III+ is up near
the
top end, and to an open boater, looks awful similar to Class IV-.

Likewise, class IV and V water is primarily rated by yakkers, as that is
their specialty water, and to them, class III looks suspiciously similar
to easy class IV.

As a result, there are a LOT of rapids rated class 3+ or 4- which have
very
little similarity, except that they are really challenging for an open
boat
and a bit easy for a kayak.

Similarly, eastern water is rated by yakkers and canoeists, but western
water is rated by rafters. Eastern boaters wouldn't automatically add a
few
levels just because there are rocks in a rapid, but western boaters
(especially big water boaters) freak out at rocks. Look at Hance in the
GC:
no way thats a 10, but tell that to those rubber boaters who are used to
punching 10 foot waves. Similarly, try to convince an east coast boater
that, just because there's a 10 foot wave in a rapid, its not necessarily
a
class V.

In fact, when I travelled around the NW around 1985 or so, and was running
(eastern-style class 3) water in my BlueHole 17A, I was what most
easterners
considered a dinosaur and an advanced-intermediate boater, but on most of
the western rivers I ran, no one had ever seen a canoeist before, and I
was
cutting edge. Rather funny at the time. :-)

--riverman