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in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/17/04 10:08 AM:

Well Keenan, I'll try again to clarify a few of these issues.

You continue to mention the puritans, and I got to thinking that you
being in Canada have a different view of them than we down here in the
Colonies. They were the religious fanatics of the day, that incited
the riot we call the fight for independence. Of course to us they are
just a bunch of nice folks who wear funny hats, and eat turkey.

You seem to have an obsession with pilgrims.

This would also suggest why you have a problem with the Constitution,
and think it got things wrong, and should be redone.

Well, it would have been nice if someone could have foreseen what the NRA
was going to do with that "right to bear arms" line!

You are still
licking your wounds over that little fracus back in 1776. Sorry you
lost that one too!

Uh?

Also abortion. And censorsihp.

Abortion has been discussed before, but censorship is new. Who got
censored?

Um. You are aware that since 9/11 the entire mainstream American media has
been little more than George W's personal mouthpiece?

As it happens, I am not gay, but hatred against gay people is not
"hypothetical" for me any more than racism against black people or unequal
pay for women is "hypothetical."

What happens to you in US politics is all Hypothetical to you. It is
not to those of us who live here.

Nevertheless, hatred against gay people is not "hypothetical" for me any
more than racism against black people or unequal pay for women is
"hypothetical."

Isn't choice great! The Puritans came here inorder to exercise free
choice, and in so doing, chose to live in a land where others chose
differently. However it is also a democratic land where the majority
rules, and the minority is protected from the tyranny of the majority,
by the courts.

Much to the chagrin of George and friends who are furious that the courts
occasionally strike down some of their puritanical efforts. But a few
changes to the courts, and whammo, the powers of hate will have the
congress, the senate, the presidency, and the courts!

I'm glad that you saw what I said about the courts. They have proven
through the years to be a moderating factor in US politics. So the
Constitution does work, and there is hope for the Dems, and the
forest! and you!

The constitution is just a piece of paper. If George has control over the
government and the courts, the constitution ain't gonna jump out of its case
and beat him (more) senseless.

The Majority is currently identified as the moral
mojority, and so is opposed to the immoral minority. I am not saying
that this is true or right, just that it is reality.

Whatever that means.

Think about it, maybe you will eventually get it.

It's not happening.

The minority, now has the choice, of dealing with it, or slinking
away. I admire you that you are not slinking! That things are
difficult for you, no doubt! We were there for a long time, and only
recently have rallied the troops to take significant ground. Now is
not the time for us to get lazy either. We will keep pressing on, and
you can choose to get onboard or not. That is your choice!

Um. Half of your own country is not on board, and just about all of the rest
of the world is not on board. And you are not going to convince me to hate
people just because a lot of you have gotten your **** together with the
hatred of others as your focus.

All your counts don't count in US politics. The only poll that counts
is the one on Nov 2, and is only valid for four years!

Nevertheless, you are not going to convince me to hate people just because a
lot of you have gotten your **** together with the hatred of others as your
focus.

Our choice is that we do not want to have Gay Marriages blighting the
landscape

What is your problem with gay marriages?

Asked and Answered, you still don't get it!

Nope. You never answered.

nor wanton abortion polluting our collective conscious.

again Asked and Answered!

Nope. You never answered.

But you are OK with young girls in the alley with coat hangers, right?

Of course not, but what a false dilemna.

Really!

Before Roe v. Wade, there
were probably some coat hanger abortions. But not nearly the number of
abortions that go on today. Ironically, I heard that the majority of
babies aborted would probably have been raised in a Liberal home, and
would have swollen your voting ranks now by 20 million.

I'nm not sure that they are "my" voting ranks because you still haven't told
me what a liberal is. Is anyone who thinks George W is a dangerous twit a
liberal?

The Dems could
have used those votes, and would have defeated Bush. You have cut
yourself off at the knees.

Again, I'm Canadian, and I'm not a Democrat. I may or may not be a "liberal"
but you still haven't told me what that is.

Will you find a way to deny rich people access to abortions too, or is this
another in your list of policies designed to advance hate against the less
fortunate.

The rich have money to go where they want, to do what ever they want.

Right.

They aren't going to planned parenthood clinics for an abortion.

Right.

However, we do not choose to have the bill footed by Uncle Sam either.
If the less fortunate can't afford an abortion, let them figure out
how to keep from getting pregnant. You know it still is a mystery.

Ah! More of this fascinating logic. A 16 year old girl who gets date-raped
but happens to have a rich daddy gets her abortion. The 16 year old from the
other side of the tracks should be forced to have the baby because she
doesn't have the money to go to a private clinic. So now you've got a 16
year old mother with no money raising a child with no money. And somehow you
think this is a better financial plan than making abortion accessible to the
poor?

Regarding blacks feeling intimidated at the polling place, I feel that
is generally a bogus charge.

Blacks feel intimidated at all sorts of places in America, the polling booth
certainly being one of the places where said intimidation is at its best.

There may be places this occurs, it is a
big country, but I am sure we would have heard more, if it was
rampant.

From who? Fox News!?!?

But it sure sounds politically powerful. And there is the
core of the problem for Liberals. They keep trying to find some magic
bullet to propel themselves into power, without really having a viable
platform. Now that would be really hijacking the election, if they
could have pulled it off, like feeding bogus exit polls to their
sheep, which made them feel real good for awhile, but the let down was
a real bummer. Of course if you can blame it on some "old white
dudes," hey, what a coup. Keep on believeing this BS, if it makes you
feel better.

No idea what you are talking about there,

Again Clueless!

That's one possibility. Or, you might not be making any sense.

but you do realize that the
election was a rather close one, and that it is going to be difficult to
keep people in a state of perpetual fear, or even another four years? Even
Americans will get bored with the so-called "war on terror."

This is an important point, by the way.

Mm. Only y'all ain't born with equality of opportunity. But I spose
that's
just some crackpot liberal thinkin' there eh?

For a change, I think you got it right, sort of! We obviously are not
born with equal opportunity

Praise geezus.

but then that is not what the
Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal

Then the Constitution is wrong. You might want to fix it. I think you fixed
up some other parts that were wrong. Like the value of a black person? That
sort of thing.

and that there are certain inalienable rights. Health
care, or driving a Rolls, and living in Aspen, is not one of them.

What about the right to put all your money offshore and not pay even as much
tax as the poorest person?

live in Colorado, but not Aspen. I drive a hardly rolls, and I have to
pay for my own health insurance. I have a black neighbor who has a
newer car, - a management job, that I expect provides insurance, and
both of us could go up to ski in Aspen. Ain't America great,
independent of our skin color, we can go any place we choose. The
only thing that really holds us back, is our own vision of who we are
and where we want to be!

Too put it bluntly, that's an idiotic oversimplification. Your kids, or the
kids born to your neighbour, are not going to have the same barriers to
success as some kid growing up in a **** poor neighbourhood where the police
are afraid to go and the school is a war zone. It's easy to have a nice
vision when you are starting from the top of the mountain.

I am hardly at the top of the mountain, but as I understand it

How have you come to this understanding?

anyone who really wants to can climb the mountain

Interesting. So the kid who risks his life just to walk in the school doors
in one of those rundown black only neighbourhoods just needs to "choose" to
climb the mountain and he'll end up at Harvard alongside the nice little
rich kid from the private school in the gated community.

That is what made the US
unique! and people come still everyday, and are willing to do whatever
it takes to stay.

Sorry to tell you, but it's not unique to the US. Anyone will go anywhere
that puts them in a better position than where they are now.

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

LOL. Again, y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

It is not a false dilemna, kerry said, he was going to raise the taxes
on the rich.

As I recall, the VERY rich. That little group that has most of the money but
pays hardly any taxes.

Now you said earlier, that the rich don't pay taxes,
because they put them off shore. As if raising the amount due will
encourage them to bring their investments back on shore.

Oh, I see, you should encourage social responsibility in the very rich not
by closing loopholes, but by making the tax system in America as attractive
as an offshore island...brilliant!

That would
mean, Kerry would not be able to raise the promised taxes to support
the promised programs, so they would fail, unless he raise taxes on
me. I don't have off shore investments. The best I could hope for is
that Uncle Sam would take money from one of my pockets, and put it
back in another. This of course after he took his cut. Then all these
programs would fire up inflation, which is nothing more than a hidden
tax as my dollar buys less.

Now I am sure you will probably say Huh! so maybe we will talk more
about that later.

Mm, no, that's too ridiculous for even a Huh!

I am self-employed, which means I get to pay all my own taxes, and I
know how much I pay. I have paid a lot for a long time, and I am not
rich. I would not mind being rich, mind you, then I could maybe afford
to take a vacation or move up to Canada. But then I would spoil it for
you, and that luckily for you, is not a false dilemna.

You should come up here. See if you can pick out the gay married people from
the gay unmarried people the straight unmarried people and the straight
married people.

I never claimed that I could pick out gays from staight, married or
unmarried.
Unless I see two or more of them convorting together

What's convorting look like? And how could you tell the married convorters
from the unmarried convorters?

and then there
is no doubt that all could ID them! So what is the point? This line of
reason does not make me want to have gay marriages in my community. If
gays want to live together, that is up to them, but we do not have to
sanction them as a married couple.

Ahhh....so it's about sanctioning. Reminds me of black/white marriages.
Y'all have got a lot of growing and maturing to do. Get over yourselves.
What's the "straight marriage" divorce rate now? 50%? How's adultery doing?
Are y'all making Jesus proud? Maybe less time should be spent worrying about
gay couples ruining marriage, and a little more time spent realizing that
it's already in a shambles and the idea that marriage needs to be protected
from gay people is almost as silly as it is sad.