Here's a man who doesn't know his history.

Depending on how you define it, that would include everybody.

So, Oz, you also think Johnson started the Vietnam war?


OzOne wrote:
Nope, AFAIK Johnson DID start the war.

Kennedy had about 16,000 military advisors in Vietnam when he was
assasinated.

Check.

Johnson ordered a retaliatory attack after torpedo boats attacked the
Ticonderoga, and two other US vessels, the names of which escape me
atm, while they were providing radar tracking for Sth Viet forces and
on station in the Tonkin.
The war progressed rapidly from that point in August '64.

The Gulf of Tonkin incident was the political excuse that LBJ used to
get Congressional support for "widening" the war. The shooting was
already going on, and US main force ground units were already in place &
committed... the question is: on what scale, with what objective, under
what rules of engagement, and (perhaps the paramount question) under
what conditions would they be pulled out.

You could make the case that Kennedy started the war by sending in U.S.
airborn forces to protect the "military instructors" we had working with
the South Vietnamese army. Then of course Kennedy had to send in real
grunts to protect the aircraft.

You could make the case that Eisenhower started the war by sending in
those "military instructors" and you could further that case against
Eisenhower by pointing out that S.E.A.T.O. was formed by his
administration with his explicit approval (the Dulles boys did a lot
behind his back, but not this one).

You could make the case that Truman started the war by committing U.S.
policy to supporting the French re-occupation of Viet Nam; and further
that case by pointing out that he sent a lot of military aid to the
French including U.S. air support, although that air support was always
based outside the country AFAIK.

You could make the case that Louis XIV started the war by giving up
French colonial possessions to the British; then turning around and
encouraging French free-style capitalists & Catholic missionaries to go
out and seek new colonies to exploit & convert, which is what led them
to the shores of what is now Viet Nam.


There were actually some secret bombing raids under Pres Johnson prior
to that, flown by US military pilots in old US aircraft, but these did
not amount to a commitment to war.

That didn't come until Jan '65 then Feb '65 when the US launched its
first bombing strikes but without any official declaration of war.
IIRC Johnson said something like "I've had enough of this crap" before
ordering the attack.

March '65 saw two battalions of marines move in and Rolling Thunder
kicked off.

Yep... and let the historic record show that the Marines were very
optimistic at the time because the landings were almost completely
unopposed, a novelty for them.

DSK