In article ,
I believe you. This is an education problem that the government should
take a major responsible role for, but that doesn't mean we should
scrap it.

Once again, no culpability.....

Huh? What are you talking about?

Figure out that someday you or a loved one will need the gov't
intervention to live. I hope it doesn't happen, but it has happened to
me. It's easy to claim to be self-reliant; it's another to actually be
so.

If it comes to that, then I hope I die....but I doubt it will come to
that....you see, uinstead of a cell phone and vehicles that cost a bundle to
drive, and trading up to a newer bigger house every year, we've pauid all
our bills, own our vehicles and boat free and clear and put our money away
so that that will never happen. My son jokes about Mom's room at his house,
but if I can help it, that will never be. If it comes to that, then at
least there will be something that we've provided to take care of me.

It'll never happen?? You mean needing emergency help and not being
able to ask for it?

I would say tongue-in-cheek that I hope you do to, but I'm not going
to. I'm not a mean person.

I have. Repreatedly. It does nop good. I have employees from the Goodwill
OJT that work wonderfully until their contract with OJT is met and then they
start to call in and shirk....so we end up having to terminate them...and
then in 3 months they're hired at the nursing home next door on the same OJT
project...I've seen this happen 3 times in the past 2 years...

If you actually want to report someone, it will make a difference
and it will have a positive result. To whom did you report them...

the time, the vast majority of the time, people who are being helped
by gov't assistance need that help.

Nope. The government needs to help them not need help. They need to make
them culpable for their actions. They need to learn the consequences of
making bad choices.

The VAST majority of people who receive gov't assistance NEED that
assistance. What bad choices are you talking about? Being born to a
crack mom? Having an inferior education because there are minimal
property taxes to support the schools? Or are you going to rely on
gov't intervention in the form of the underfunded "no child behind"?

No. The obligation of the majority is to protect the rights of the
minority. That's been codified for centuries.

To protect, not to enable bad behavior and foster slothfullness and
entitlement.

There has certainly been some of that, but that doesn't obsolve us
from helping nevertheless.

Young women of 15 are not children in this day and age, and probably weren't
in any day and age.

This sounds like pedofilia to me. They are certainly children, just as
boys of that age are. They do not have good judgement generally,
although some do. I suppose you support executing children also?

Children are not responsible for their
actions.

The age of reason begins around the age of 7. Moral conciousness is
developed before then. And yes, children are and should be held resposible
for their actions. You really need a good dose of Jim Fay and Love and
Logic. Good thing you don't have kids,..they'd be a royal mess.

Begins. But, doesn't mature until much later. So, you're saying that
it's ok for an 11 year old to be seduced by someone your age, and then
hold the 11 year old responsible for their actions????

That's just cold-hearted and mean.

Bleeding heart liberal...responsible for most of the social ills of the
present because you don't realize that people, children included, must be
responsible for their actions.

How responsible? How much more should we heap on kids? This position
of yours makes you sound like a monster. Quit digging. The hole is
plenty deep.

Why is it necessary to
ruin her life and probably the life of the child after it's born? So
you can feel good about your paycheck or your morality??

My paycheck and morality have nothing to do with it. How many young women
who've had abortions have you talked to? They are usually consymed with
guilt for years and years afterwards and regret what they did.

I suspect more than you have, but that's not the point. Women who give
up their baby for adoption are also riddled with guilt. Some women do
it relatively easily... some are traumatized. In any case, it should
not be YOUR decision. It should be between the woman, her doctor, and
her god. The state shouldn't be invovled.

Really? Well, that's news to me? Do you really think most people are going
want a baby from a 15 year old child from a broken home, a minority,
who hasn't even gotten out of high school, and who might be doing drugs
during the pregnancy?

Yep. There are tons of people out there waiting for those babies and they
cry themselves to sleep every night because there isn't one for them. Go
check the lists at the adoption agencies. Lots of people who are waiting
and waiting and waiting. And BTW, my sister adopted 4 of those kinds of
children. And now she's fostering 3 more, so don;'t tell me there aren't
people out there. My cousin in MN has fosterd and adopted, also. Maybe you
need to start running with a different crowd if you haven't met any of those
kind of folks.

Oh poor rich women. How about how those poor children feel when forced
to give birth to a baby born of a rape from their father? No sympathy
for them I see. Your sister is a saint, but that's not the norm.

Not really. So, you're saying that you can't get pregnant if you're a
virgin and your uncle rapes you?

No I didn't say that. Now you're getting totally ridiculous.

Well, not in so many words, but you did say that a child should be
held responsible for all mistakes no matter the effect on her or
anyone else.

She informs the school guidance couselor, Protective Services, the
police...she emancipates herself. rather than educate about abortion,
educate on how to take care of yourself.

Haha.. good one. And, the Bush administration would force the couselor
or the police to notify the rapist that she's pregant, even if that
person is her father. What's wrong with educating people about all the
options? According to you, that's just too much evil.

The vast majority of people in this country support a woman's right to
choose.

As do I. But that doesn't mean that I don't think the action is wrong and
immoral. And it doesn't mean that I still don't have the right to my
opinion or the right to voice my opinion.

Voice it, fine. But don't think you can legislate your
morality. That's my objection to what the Bu****s are doing!

Yet, the Bush administration and other right-wing groups are
attempting to get around those wishes... it's something like 80% I
believe.

If that were so, the issue would be settled. And the 80% would not vote for
Bush.

Not necessarily. For most people, that's not the end all and be all of
the issues at hand. And, the issue is settled, unless Bush appoints
conservative, anti-choice judges to the Court.

No. I want us to follow the rule of law and respect the majority view.

Ah, but what about those minority rights? You seem to have forgotten about
them quite conveniently.

What about their rights? Do you now consider yourself an oppressed
minority? My bleeding heart goes out to you....

You and I will never agree on anything political, Jon, so I'm ending this
discussion because I like you way too much to argue with you further. You
want to talk about sailing, that's fine with me, but this foes nowhere.

Ah, you want to end the discussion, because you're caught in your own
bull****. I guess you finally realized that the hole you dug is deep
enough. Not quite deep enough to hide your crap in, but deep enough
for you to feel good about yourself.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."