"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:23:58 GMT, "Jeffrey McCann"
wrote:

Ill bet they did. And Ill further bet that they are mostly Left
Liberals who are complaining.

The Left is the side that defends the Constitutional rights of citizens.
The Statist, authoritarian NeoCons of the Right are the problem.

Sure Jeff..sure..now what again expires at Midnight tonight?

The AWB is one of my lesser worries, although Bush said he'd sign a renewal.
Of course, he says lots of things that never come to pass, so ya' never
know. The Left's occasional tresspasses against civil rights pale in
comparision to the frequent and severe all-out assaults by the Right. Face
it, the BoR is safer in the hands of the Democrats.

"I believe that the FBI is genuinely concerned about uncovering
terrorist
activity and violence," said Donna Lieberman, executive director of
the
New
York Civil Liberties Union, but added that agents should honor
protected
dissent, the core of democracy.

Attorney General John Ashcroft defended the FBI interviews at a news
conference yesterday. Ashcroft said FBI agents interviewed only
protesters
they believed were plotting to firebomb media vehicles at the
Democratic
convention or might have known about such plots.


Sounds fair to me.

I'm sure it does. What Ashcroft and his cronies "believed" is
irrelevent.
The question is whether there was sufficient legal grounds for their
actions, and whether their actions were conducted legally, period.

Good question. And the answer is?

He is the Attorney General of the US, after all. So we know that's another
question that won't ever see answered.

Ashcroft said suggestions that the interviews were aimed at stifling
protests were an "outrageous distortion."

"We interviewed a very limited number of people that we believed were
either
participating in a plan to criminally and violently disrupt the
Democratic
National Convention, or individuals that might have known something
about
that plan," Ashcroft said.

Sounds fair.

What Ashcroft and his cronies "believed" is irrelevent. The question is
whether there was sufficient legal grounds for their actions, and whether
their actions were conducted legally, period.

Good question. And the answer is?

There is clear evidence of improper interrogation and intimidation by
federal authorities, which will never, of course, be properly investigated.
By the way, how's that investigation into the outing of a CIA agent, in
apparent revenge for her husband's revealing the truth about some of Bush's
lies coming?

Joe Parris, an FBI spokesman in Washington, said officers from the
bureau's
Joint Terrorism Task Force are entitled to question activists about
possible
violence around high-profile election-year events. "The interviewees
were
free to talk to us or not. Nobody was taken into custody, locked up
for
interrogation. Nobody was given the third degree," he said.

Sounds fair.

What Ashcroft and his cronies "believed" is irrelevent. The question is
whether there was sufficient legal grounds for their actions, and whether
their actions were conducted legally, period. When you get interrogated
just for, let's say, posting to this newsgroup, we'll see what you say.

Good question. And the answer is?

We may see one day, but I hope not, for your sake. I'd hate to see you get
the Richard Jewell or Steven J. Hatfill treatment.

But some legal experts say it is inappropriate for law enforcement
agents
to
continue questioning people who have invoked their right to counsel.

Some..operative word "some" Ill bet those legal experts are likely to
be mouthpieces for the Left Libs.

"It is a form of badgering, and it is clearly designed to coerce or
intimidate witnesses with the objective being that they should speak
to
them
without counsel," said Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University
law
professor.


Where in the PC is badgering not a legitimate tactic? And please
define Badgering.

This week, several Democratic lawmakers called for a Justice
Department
investigation into whether the questioning violated the protesters'
First
Amendment rights.

Oh hooo! Several Democrats...of course!

Yeah. Of course, the Repugs are the problem here, remember?

No..the whiney Left is the problem. Shrug.

Yeah. No one should ever dare to question the authorities for possibly
violating citizen's civil rights, is that it? How very NeoCon of you.

In a letter to the Justice Department, Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., the
ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, and two other panel
members, Reps. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., and Robert Scott, D-Va., said
the
FBI
appeared to be "engaged in systematic political harassment and
intimidation
of legitimate anti-war protesters."


Now there is a trio of leftists that we can judge as fair and
balanced..indeed...snicker...

And what is the job of of members of the Judiciary Committee? Get it?

Not partisian politics..thats for sure. And the Republican members
said what?

Nothing. They don't care much for civil rights anyway. Why would they care
about possible oppression? The LIKE it, for the most part.

Gary Bald, assistant director of the FBI's counterterrorism division,
said
the bureau anticipates violent protests at the upcoming Republican
National
Convention in New York but does not have enough evidence to move
against
any
group or person.

Federal investigators have infiltrated some groups and are monitoring
protest plans published on the Internet.

New York officials have said they expect hundreds of thousands of
people
to
stage demonstrations around the convention, which begins Aug. 30.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...312_fbi21.html
*****
Three Democratic lawmakers on the House Judiciary Committee have
criticized
the FBI's interviews of protesters around the country. They asked the
Justice Department's inspector general to investigate what they called
"possible violations of First Amendment free speech and assembly
rights."

[snip] The committee's ranking Democrat, Michigan's John Conyers,
along
with
Reps. Robert C. "Bobby" Scott of Virginia and Jerrold Nadler of New
York,
said in a letter that the FBI "appears to be engaged in systematic
political
harassment and intimidation of legitimate anti-war protesters." [snip]
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in636357.shtml
*****
NEW YORK (AP) - Long-haired and bearded, Sebastian Licht said he set
out
Tuesday to celebrate his 22nd birthday, only to be mocked by a police
officer as "Jesus" and swept up in one of the largest mass arrests in
the
nation's history.
He emerged two days later from court - smelly, bleeding and determined
to
become the activist he says police feared he was.

One of more than 1,700 people arrested this week at demonstrations
aimed
at
the Republican National Convention, Licht gained his freedom on
Thursday
morning. A judge, frustrated at the city's pace in moving protesters
through
the criminal justice system, ordered the immediate release of nearly
500
of
them.

Most of those arrested were anti-GOP protesters, but some insist they
got
snared in the chaos. Licht puts himself in the latter category.

Wearing a Polo Sport Ralph Lauren shirt and khaki shorts, Licht
described
his 6 p.m. arrest Tuesday in Herald Square, where he said he
approached a
subway station that he learned was closed only to be caught in a
police
sweep of the area.

"Because I have long hair and a beard, they took me," he said.

Being in the wrong place and at the wrong time had nothing to do with
it, correct?

Being innocent of any crime apparently had nothing to do with it.

Thats for the jury and the Judge to decide, isnt it? So far..its
Lichts word against the cops. And his press credentials were where
exactly?

How many trials do you think there are gonna be? The object wasn't to
arrest and prosecute criminals, apparently.

At one point after his arrest, he said, a police officer saw him
laughing.
"What's so funny, Jesus?" he recalled the officer asking.

Fair question.

A mocking insult, intended as such. Taunting or insulting arrestees is
improper police conduct, albeit minor.

Sure. Almost on the same level as buggery with a toilet plunger.

No, but that was another shining example of the NYPD's respect for civil
rights, and you trust those guys?

He said the officer then tightened the handcuffs and said, "It's not
so
funny now, is it, Jesus?" Blood seeped from a small cut on his wrist
as
he
recalled the incident.

bummer. I wonder if he will loose the hand.

Petty physicial abuse, also illegal.

Ive flex cuffed quite a number of suspects a time or two..and each and
every one of them that got cut were thrashing around.

Overtightening cuffs OK with you? If so, you weren't trained properly.

Now free, he said he planned to look for a protest rally, inspired by
his
experience and the many political discussions he heard while waiting
with
protesters to appear in court and be released. He called it the "birth
of
my
activism."

Surrrre he does.

Such abuse invites response.

Sure it does. Assuming he wasnt lying like a rug. I should remind you
that NYC is a liberal run and operated organization. They didnt even
want the GOP convention there. So the cops are in cahoots with the
Right? Sure Jeff..sure.

NYPD is a bastion of liberalism? That's pretty funny, even for you. ;-)

Now he has two options for response. He can find himself a nice
liberal lawyer and sue, or get a high powered rifle and climb one of
those nice tall buildings and "Fix Em...cackle chortle" .

I hope he chooses the former.

Among more seasoned activists emerging from court was Mikel Stone, 29,
of
Denver, who described his time at a detention center on Pier 57 as a
nightmare, part of the same two-day odyssey experienced by Licht. "My
throat
still hurts and my joints are achy," he said.

He said a thick black oily residue on the floor of Pier 57 stained his
pants
during the two days he was locked up after he was caught in a police
net
arrest at Herald Square on Tuesday.


Oh horrors..the Seasoned Activist got his pants dirty!!!!!! the
horror..the horror.....

Good tactic, pretending to miss the main point to focus on trivialities,
seeing as you are in the wrong.

No Jeff..we are taking the word of a bunch of semi and professional
activists for their "beatings and humilitations and being tear gased
and trampled by horses and.... well you get the drift.

No, we are reviewing first hand accounts and reportage of police misconduct
and civil rights violations. Remember, the shoe fits equally well on the
other foot.

A political science student and anti-war activist, Stone said he
believed
harsh detention conditions were part of an effort by the city to be
"cruel
and demoralizing."

What..did he want MTV?

No, just his civil rights.

And he didnt get them exactly how?

Unlawful arrest. Illegal detention. Police misconduct.

Still, he said he planned to protest Thursday night.

Hummmm sounds like he got out quick enough and he wasnt too
demoralized....
Tim Kulik, 22, a photography student at the Rochester Institute of
Technology who was transporting film for photographers at The
Associated
Press when he was arrested late Tuesday on his bicycle, was freed
Thursday
after 35 hours.

He said he was scraped on his face and bruised on his leg and neck
when a
police officer tackled him before other officers completed the arrest.
The
officer who tackled him later tightened his handcuffs when he asked
that
they be loosened, he said.

And why was he tackled? And where was his press credentials?

Press "credentials" are not necessary, nor are they any kind of legal
requirement.

Sure they are. If you are told to leave and area, or stop doing
whatever the police consider to be illegal.. having press credentials
is often a keep out of jail card. In fact..most often its a free
ticket.

When the cops are acting in stormtrooper mode, as occasionally has been
known to happen, all bets are off.

"As far as police, they're good, pretty objective and professional,
but
then
I encountered plenty of disrespectful police who abuse their
positions,"
he
said.

At least they didnt call him Jesus.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said officers acted with restraint.
In
a
statement Thursday, he said there had been "exaggerated claims and
outright
falsehoods" about the conditions at the post-arrest screening site at
Pier
57.

That I can believe.

We never smelled the crematoria, noticed the ashfall, or knew anything
about
it, honest! They said they were just resettling the Jews in the East.
That
I can believe.

Nice strawman Jeff.

No strawman. The question is, where will you, Gunner, draw the line? I
suggest you consider the question carefully, and set aside your personal
distaste for the people involved and/or their particular politics. We've
seen just how slippery this slope is already.

Now that should be accompanied with some sad
Polish Gypsy music and the faint sounds of jack boots marching in
rythm and perhaps a train whistle faintly in the background,

Maybe some ground fog..and lines of refugees in their Nikes and Levis
passing by on the way to the showers...

He said most detainees are held there for 90 minutes, none was there
longer
than eight hours and all had immediate access to toilet facilities and
drinking water.

Some probably were held longer, particularly those that refused to
provide ID. Note that in most protest literature..its recommended that
you never go to a protest with ID, as it intentionally slows down the
booking process.

Civil rights lawyer Norman Siegel, who led Thursday's court fight to
get
the
detainees freed, said the long detentions were illegal, especially
since
the
time in overcrowded, dirty conditions was disproportionate to the
alleged
misdemeanor crimes, such as disorderly conduct.

Snicker.....

These can be handled by citation.

Im sure they can be. And then the Citee will be right back doing
whatever he/she was cited for. What..5 minutes? Sure..Jeff..just
what we need. Revolving Door Riot control.

What riot are you referring to, exactly? Cites please.

"People engaged in real crimes are getting out quicker than the
protesters,"
he said. "It's an Alice in Wonderland approach."

No..its called..Those arrested for more serious crimes already are in
the computer, already know the drill and provide proper ID and do not
try to slow down the booking process.

Yeah, right.

Yah, right.

No sympathy from me.

We know where your sympathy lies, Gunner, with the statist, authoritarian
NeoCons of the Right, but not with the rights of your fellow citizens.

Jeff

Cue in the sounds of Wagner, marching men all wearing black and
jackboots, carrying the blood red banners and flaming torches enter
the scene, while in the foreground a blazing bonfire consumes a pile
of books.

Ashcroft already tried to destroy books:

"Last week, the American Library Association learned that the Department of
Justice asked the Government Printing Office Superintendent of Documents to
instruct depository libraries to destroy five publications the Department
has deemed not "appropriate for external use." The Department of Justice has
called for these five these public documents, two of which are texts of
federal statutes, to be removed from depository libraries and destroyed,
making their content available only to those with access to a law office or
law library.

The topics addressed in the named documents include information on how
citizens can retrieve items that may have been confiscated by the government
during an investigation. The documents to be removed and destroyed include:
Civil and Criminal Forfeiture Procedure; Select Criminal Forfeiture Forms;
Select Federal Asset Forfeiture Statutes; Asset forfeiture and money
laundering resource directory; and Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act of 2000
(CAFRA)."
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/ash...move_books.htm

I guess there are things about our own laws Ashcroft doesn't think you
should know. I can't believe you're still supporting these knuckleheads.

"In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't
speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and
I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the
Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came
for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up."
-Martin Niemoller

In America, where (and when) will we draw the line? Will we be able to draw
that line at all before its too late? A lesson of history is that most
people who could have and should have resisted rising oppression at home
only realized that after it was far too late.

Right Jeff...sure pal...

Nurse!!!!!!!!!! The Thorazine quickly!

Gunner, you don't need any more Thorazine. You are numb enough already.

Jeff