Bull**** Rick. You're just pontificating to hide that fact that you know you're
wrong. I made a comment that kayaks should avoid shipping channels in the fog,
and you saw this as an opportunity to play second rate pedagogue.

Yes I agree that any collision is bad news and should be avoided. And the any
master would be well advised to consider all possibilities.

However, if you believe that a small kayak, effectively invisible to radar,
could be anywhere, then it would be impossible to proceed in thick fog. Large
vessels have stopping distances far greater than visibility in thick fog - there
is absolutely no way avoid a collision even in good visibility.

Further, you seem to be claiming that the kayak has no obligation to follow the
rules. The only way that any speed is a "safe speed" is if you can assume that
all parties will behave in a reasonable manor. What speed is safe if a vessel
suddenly alters course and crosses in your path?

And you even admitted, in your convoluted way, that I'm right in the case of a
VTS. Isn't that what you meant when you said "kayak has the same rights of
navigation as the tanker within the COLREGS and VTS requirements."? Obviously,
you don't mean the kayak has the same rights, you mean that the kayak is
obligated to follow the rules of the VTS, which require it not to impede the
tanker.

So, you're the captain of a tanker? What do you do in the fog? If you give
your "maybe yes, maybe no" bull**** to your owners, you're out of a job.


"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

In other words, you don't know.

No, I don't. How could I possibly know what a Coast Guard hearing board
would decide? Or what a civil court will determine in a wrongful death suit?

All I know for sure is what measures I must take to avoid ever having to
find out.


So what is a safe speed for a tanker in a VTS in the fog?

A safe speed.


You keep evading the question.

I made every effort to answer the question as clearly as possible. There
are no one word answers for all conditions and for the very brief set of
conditions and circumstances you outlined. Welcome to the real world of
boating.

You refuse to accept that vessel operations are not as simple and clear
cut as you wish they were. If you are looking for someone to tell you
exactly what to do in each and every condition then do not sail as master.

Should all shipping shut down in the fog?

Maybe, maybe not, it all depends.

You're claiming that the kayak has the right to travel in a VTS in thick
fog?
I think not.

You may think what you like. Just don't bet your license or your life
savings on that sort of thinking.

Just 'twixt us, it behooves you to stop "thinking" what "rights" another
vessel operator has and learn what they really are and how it effects
your own operation.

Have you advised kayakers that that have a right to cross large ships in the
fog? Do you tell kids to play in the street?

Has anyone advised you to continue this absurd argument?

Why don't you stop playing on the internet and read the COLREGS. If you
have problems understanding who can do what when and where, ask someone
who lives by those rules, ask the CG who administer the rules and sit on
the hearing boards. What you want to think or believe might just get you
in a lot of trouble some day.

If the speed of the ferry was not considered an issue in this incident, I
have
trouble seeing how the ferry would be found at fault if the other vessel
were an
invisible kayak.

Perhaps because there were factors in that collision which you are not
aware of or don't understand.

The only way you will know why and how the CG came to their conclusion
is to read the report in its entirety and then read it again after
getting a few years experience in a wheelhouse as a master. If you still
disagree with their finding then come back here and tell us why they
were wrong.

Rick