"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and
its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and
even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules
for
this.

What do you mean by "no fixed rules"??

Do the ColRegs mention a speed limit? The only say a "safe speed." It is up to
the captains, local authorities and,with hindsight, the courts, to determine
what a safe speed is in a given situation.


AFAIK, there are very strict rules that govern the behaviour of vessels in
fog.

That's the problem. You don't know, but you're assuming there are such rules.
I thought you took the YachtMaster course - what did they teach you there?


Are you suggesting that big ships are exempt from the Coll Regs?

Now you're talking like an idiot. You're assuming there are fixed speed limit
somewhere in the ColRegs, and I'm advocating ignoring them.



I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog,

My copy of the Coll Regs does not mention the "Bar Harbour Fast Cat Ferry".
I was under the impression that the Coll Regs were more authoritive than
your local ferry's skipper.


You're blithering again. Why do you claim the ferry ignores the ColRegs? I
mention this particular vessel because its speed and route has been studied
carefully. And it travels regularly in the fog.




and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea
kayak.


I don't believe that "idiocy" is an issue when trying to determine "stand
on" status. Am I wrong?


How is "standon status" involved here? Are you claiming that a kayak is
"standon" in the fog? What DO they teach you in YachtMaster class?



There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?

Read the Coll Regs. I believe that the issue is covered.

Yes it is:

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the
owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences ...
of the neglect of any precaution which
may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

This means, amongst other things, that stupid behaiviour is frowned upon.

A row boat has the same right as an oil tanker to use the Atlantic. The
Coll Regs were designed to make it safe for both of them.


Sure. If it takes the same precautions. Radar. Radar reflector. Full time
watch. Frankly, I think long distance single handers are clearly breaking the
rules.




Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman
would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.


Where can you buy one of these "stealth kayaks"?

Well, this is all a bit hypothetical. You started it questioning if the ColRegs
require a radar reflector.


Are you so far out on this limb that you are having to use the concept of
fictional craft to back up your position?

I haven't bothered to look at Rule 2, .... because your position seems
ludicrous. I have read the Coll Regs in the past, and I believe that each
vessel has a duty to keep an adequate lookout.

Jeez Donal, is this another case of "I don't know the rules but they must say
what I think is right"?



You seem to be suggesting that vessels have an obligation to be seen!!!

Well Golly! I think you're finally catching on!!! The court's have ruled over
and over again that a vessel forfeits its rights (I know this isn't the right
way to say this) if it doesn't show proper lights, or sound the proper signals.
They have also held that its OK travel at some speed if a proper radar watch is
maintained. They have also held that vessels shouldn't leave dock, or cross
channels if they don't have radar. Frankly, I don't know of a case where
someone was held at fault for not having a reflector, but perhaps no one has
been dumb enough to do it; or never got very far in a law suit.









Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for
other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?

By travelling slowly ... and keeping a lookout. If the fog is very thick,
then the vessel travels *very* slowly.


You mean like not crossing a shipping lane?








"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels
should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an
invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge
amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the
world
works.


You raised the issue of "scanty information".

In thick fog, a skipper has scanty information.

The Coll Regs suggest that you should post a lookout, and that you should
slow down to a safe speed in fog.

Why do you have a problem with this?
It's all very simple. DO NOT travel at a speed where poor visibility
means that you cannot take the necessary avoiding action.

I never said you shouldn't have a lookout. I've only claiming that radar
permits a vessels to maintain a higher speed. And that it is accepted practice
to do this in certain locals. And that vessels that are poor radar targets
should avoid these locals.