"Thom Stewart" wrote

If you want to consider that '41 campaign a Allied Victory so be it?

You said "a victory" not a "campaign victory." Under that
assumption, you can't call D-Day a "victory" either -- the
Axis was still in control of all but a very small strip of France,
all the Low Countries, etc. Most people would still consider
D-Day a victory, IMO.

A major Russian city under siege, German occupation of most of European
Russia, the Romanian Oil industry in German control; I don't call that a
Victory.

Moscow wasn't under siege by Dec. 7th. The German
High Command had been trying to get Hitler to agree to
give up the attempt for about a month. But I guess you
don't call Gettysburg a victory either, right? They're
identical in scope -- both the "high tide" of the
respective invasions.

I guess you can keep score your way but the Bismarck was sunk alright
but tell that to the died on the "Hood"

I guess you don't consider Midway a victory either then.
Maybe you can tell that to the people who died on the
Yorktown someday.

Your right about the I-ties in North Africa but the Axis ( Rommel)
controlled North Africa not the Allies, the Allies didn't control North
Africa until Patton and Montgomery drove them out.

So there's at least one victory you acknowledge. Montgomery
and El Alamein was more responsible than Patton in North
Africa later, of course.

I'm had my say. The Allies, in my mind weren't winners until the Yanks
took command in Europe and Asia/Pacific.

In the Pacific War, that's probably true. The worst thing the
Japanese could do was attack the US -- they lost the moment
the first torpedo was dropped at Pearl. In Europe, it's because
you're centered on Western Europe and ignore what the USSR
did to Germany before the first "Yank" stepped out of a landing
craft on Italy -- or even met the Afrika Korps at Kasserine Pass.

Like Gettysburg finished any real hopes for the Confederacy,
Stalingrad and the USSR had finished the Third Reich. It took
quite a while for both wars to end after the turning point but that
turning point in Europe and eventual victory had more to do with
the Merchant Marine and Murmansk convoys than Ike or
Patton.