Yet more comments interspersed ....


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And, as usual, you're twisting the facts into a pretzel you
can munch with copious quantities of beer when you're
motoring along in your twin-diesel powered catamaran!

Comments interspersed.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Yes Charles, you missed the beginning of this discussion, which has gone on for about
a
year.

Neal has always maintained that Rule 19 doesn't apply to sailboats - they are not
required
to slow down in the fog. He's trying to weasel out it now by claiming that since
there
are some situations where you might apply "in sight" rules that could also qualify as
"restricted visibility" that sailboats are always standon.

I only maintained the part of Rule 19 that says all vessels must slow
down to a safe speed only applies to those vessels NOT already
going at a safe speed. You have steadfastly refused to recognize
the fact that slowing down to a safe speed applies only to those
vessels going at a fast and unsafe speed for the conditions. My
little sailboat going at hull speed of a little over six knots is going
at a safe speed therefore I am not required by the Rules to slow
down.

Once again you show your total ignorance of the rules! Rule 19 does not require boats to
slow to a safe speed, its Rule 6:

"Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she
can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped
within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and
conditions."

All vessels must always proceed at a safe speed - this is one of the basics. Rule 19 says
that sometimes you have to go even slower. Rule 19 specifically addresses restricted
visibilty, and says:

"(e) Except where it has been determined that a risk of collision does
not exist, every vessel which hears apparently forward of her beam the
fog signal of another vessel, or which cannot avoid a close-quarters situation
with another vessel forward of her beam, shall reduce her
speed to the minimum at which she can be kept on her course. She
shall if necessary take all her way off and in any event navigate with
extreme caution until danger of collision is over."

The central issue of this discussion has been your insistance that there is no situation
where a sailboat must slow down. Yet rule 19 unequivocally mandates that "ALL VESSELS ...
SHALL REDUCE SPEED TO A MINIMUM..." What can be clearer than that?

You've claimed that its impossible for a sailboat to slow down, but that only proves you
don't know how to sail. I suggest take a beginners sailing class if you don't understand
how to control your speed.


As for the in-sight situation it is common to have in-sight situations
in or near an area of restricted visibility so it follows that in-sight
Rules often apply in or near an area of restricted visibility so it
becomes apparent that stand-on/give-way does indeed exist in
or near an area of restricted visibility, hence a pecking order
exists in all its glorious ramifications.


I've often admitted that in light fog there can be situations where the "in sight" rules
take affect. However, in thick fog, two vessel making 7 knots each can be closing at 24
feet/second. In 50 foot visibilty, this does not leave enough time to even react. This
is why there can be no pecking order in thick fog - ALL VESSELS have an equal
responsibilty to REDUCE SPEED TO A MINIMUM!




Neal started by claiming sailboats should travel at full speed since it was unsafe for
them to slow down. He claimed there is never wind in fog, and that thick fog was a
myth
that didn't really exist. He claimed that sailboats don't have to slow down because
they
are inherently incapable to going at unsafe speeds, regardless of the conditions. Now
he's trying to construct a grey area scenario do prove his case.


I never said 'should' I said 'could'. There is a difference ya know. I said most
fogs don't have winds. Sail on an inland lake, sail in southern Florida, sail on
a river and you will find many situations where there is fog and little of no wind.


By claiming a vessel is "standon" you imply it must maintain course and speed. But even
so, claiming a sailboat "could" proceed a full speed in thick fog also blatantly wrong.


I did say small cruising sailboats like mine with hull speeds of six knots
or less are already going at a safe speed so they are not required by the
Rules to slow down to a safe speed. This is so obvious I'm surprised you
keep failing to get it.


For many situations, you may be correct. However, in thick fog, 6 knots is too fast, even
for a small boat. The rules are quite explicit. The courts have also been very specific
on this, holding vessels at fault because they did not anchor immediately.

BTW, just a month ago you claimed your hull speed was 7 knots. Did you suddenly slow
down?

As for a gray area. I'm doing nothing but giving concrete situations that
happen day in and day out and applying the Rules to them to come to
my valid conclusions that you happen to disagree with but have little
or nothing to support your opinions when I clearly do.


No, you've merely claimed rules that protect boats in thick fog don't make sense because
sometimes there isn't thick fog. This is nonsensical!

S.Simon - does not allow people to spin the facts in typical
liberal fashion.