DSK wrote:
Show my what?



Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it
heeling?

The navigator© wrote:
Take two boats, say a canoe stern and a modern form but same sailplan.
balance them and then raise wind speed. One will round up more than the
other...


Neither will "round up" if the skipper knows what he's doing. Or do you mean that
one will develop stronger weather helm than the other? That is obvious. Are you
proud of figuring this out?


At last! Why did it take _you_ so long to work out what we were talking
about!



Obviously outside your 'extensive' experience Doug, or too
difficult to understand?


Umm, no.



Don't bother with more of your pompous bluster, we who have sailed such
boats can see you haven't. I think's it's typical that you try to avoid
the real question at hand which is: Can a modern high speed hull shape
(e.g a V60) be balanced across WIND SPEEDS AND SEAS with a FREE rudder
by using hull form!


This is the first time this particular question has been asked. I guess you have
to try and keep changing the subject, since the discussion has left you behind?

Hahahhaa. It was my question! let me repost it:

Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round
up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the
hull with no rudder?

Well?

What do you mean by "using hull form" ... AFAIK no boats change the shape of their
hull underway.

Can you really be so dense? You exasperate me. Think about the
interaction of the water with the hull for that is what we are discussing.

Are you talking about varying the angle of heel just for the effect
on the helm?


There's NO HELM get it? The question is as posted above!!!!!!!!!


Could it be that you can't find the answer with a
dinghy sailing manual?


Actually, a good dinghy sailing manual will in fact tell a lot about balancing the
helm using heel & trim.



Not for this Q it won't


By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease
the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you
ever get invited to race a BIG boat.

Obsessed with size, Navvie?

Not sure what you mean by "loosing the helm" but most sailors know what is meant
by either a death roll or a broach.

Loosing the helm is only seen on bigger wedgy boats. If you had sailed
one you would know that.


Could go either way. Letting the sheet run
will help either, but it's better to use a specific technique for whatever is
starting to go wrong, and to have quick enough reflexes to catch the boat and get
her pointed in the right direction again. For a broach, letting the vang run is
the first step,


This is hilarious. You really have no idea beyond dinghy sailing do you?
Let me give you a word of advice. If you are ever on a big boat don't do
this -you will tear the boom right out of the goosneck.


then letting the main out (if it's not already against the
shrouds), then (if you've still got time) pulling the pole down hard and easing
the spinnaker sheet. Only let the sheet run if all else fails.

In a windward spinnaker broach it's the spinnaker pressure that's the
problem! The spinnaker moving is the problem!


In a death roll, letting the spinnaker sheet run free is going to make it worse
immediately,


I disagree. The windward rotation is best stopped by standing the boat
up. Let me explain why:

1. The main is less important cos it's luffing and skying the boom makes
thing worse by breaking full battens -even if it doesn't break the gooneck!

2. The helm is losing authority (that's a large part of why racing
dinghies with plates 1/2 down can control, it better) and standing the
boat up massively increases control by

a) stopping rudder ventilation
b) increasing effective rudder area
c) decreasing the pitching moment on the hull that is stopping the bow
from rising and turning downwind
d) increasing keel grip.


3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is
the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air!

although it may get you out of trouble once the current oscillation
is over. The better answer is to run the pole forward and down hard, and also if
you crew is sharp they'll yank the sheet twinger down hard too.


These ideas just don't apply in offshore racing 'cos you can't adjust
things that fast -the loads are huge and you can't just yank in a
'twinger' (we call it a barber hauler -the tension of the sheet can be
so large you can walk up it) or pull the pole down fast. That is why the
sheet trimmer is so important. One should always rig a barber hauler if
high/gusty winds are anticipated (with a snap block) but this is not a
control for the stopping a broach once it's starting -it's only
prevention. Similarly pulling the pole down is also prevention -if you
are willing to increase the liklihood of a spinnaker blow out as well as
decrease trimming accuracy.


The real problem is that all this stuff has to happen fast, there is not time to
explain. A well drilled crew can pull a boat out of an impending broach or death
roll, and this can make a big gain on a downwind leg where others are wiping out.

At least we agree on that 100%.