"Ki Ayker" wrote in message
...

Most hypothermia victims (from memory, and no, I don't have the stats
here
to back this up, though a search may provide same) die in relatively warm
water (65-72F)

I read this in sea kayaker many years ago. I have no idea whether I can find
the statistic or not. It was specifically a statistic derived from sea
kayaking incidents studied by the safety editor of the magizine (before Matt
Broze - though I can't recall who the author was back then).


According to the ACA report, "Critical Judgment - Understanding and
Preventing Canoe and Kayak Fatalities," "In the USCG data, just over half
of
all fatalities for which water temperature was known occurred in water
that was
less than 65 degrees Fahrenheit." This of course refers to both kayaking
and
canoeing fatalities. From my own memory I seem to recall that the
overwhelming
majority of sea kayaking fatalities which I have read about generally
occurred
in colder water. But I could be mistaken. Your information may apply to
all
recreational boating fatalities which is neither here nor there.


Canoists tend to be ill-prepared for immersion, as a group. I went on a
summer trip on a 47F river last year (I'm doing a similar trip with the
scouts this year), and the boys who fell in the water needed rescue in
seconds. Since I had the kayak and wetsuit, I was in the water constantly
extracting boys, canoes, and gear. The air was 100F or better duing the peak
of the day, dropping to the mid 90's at night. At no time was I so
uncomfortable that I felt a need to divest myself from my gear (though I did
get lots of rolling practice).

This stat surprised me, but it is an indicator how people may judge
themself
safe in conditions where there is still considerable risk. You and I both
know that you can stay in the water off Calif. for much longer in a
wetsuit
than without. Does that ensure safety or survival - no. Still, my son can
bob along in a wetsuit for hours in 55F water, for only a few seconds
without. There is no doubt that he, along with everyone else, is safer
wearing immersion gear.

You just said that being able to spend more time in the water does not
ensure safety or survival. You also say that there is no doubt that
everyone is
safer wearing immersion gear. I don't understand.

Nobody can be guaranteed rescue, we all know this. What gear can do is
ensure that you can survive longer in the water. My son, for example, would
be suffering from exposure long before I could empty his boat and get him
back into it were he to capsize without his wetsuit. This would be a serious
safety emergency simply because he is not biologically eqiupped to handle
cold as well as I am.

What being dressed for the
water does is prolong your exposure time - that's all! Or to put it
another
way, it buys you time before you die. Does this make you safer? It can.
Unless
the extra protection creates a false sense of security causing people to
"judge
themself safe in conditions where there is still considerable risk." Or
unless
it causes people to take additional risks, such as rolling to cool down.
Derek
Hutchinson is often quoted as saying something like, learning to roll is a
great success, but needing to roll is a result of failure. I am not so
sure
that encouraging someone to intentionally capsize to try to get
comfortable in
hot clothing is really such a good idea. But that may be yet another topic
for
another time.

Rolling is a skill that must be practiced. If getting a bit warm is a
motivator to practice (something that few people do on a regular basis),
than overdressing is certainly better than underdressing. You deal with the
public and I am willing to bet that even those students who learn to roll in
your program do not practice it often enough to use it when needed. This is
the case with the majority of kayakers here in the northern Ca. and is
probably the case where you are as well.


I disagree. All accidents have root causes and the severity of damages
can
be assessed for their common conditions

Let me rehash an example I have used before. Some time ago I was ill
for
about a week. I decided I needed to see the doctor. But when I called the
earliest appointment I could make was about a week away. When the day of
appointment came around I was feeling much better so I canceled the visit.
Had
I been allowed to promptly get in a see the doctor when I first called
then I
would have no doubt given the doctor the credit for my recovery despite
the
fact that I got better just the same without him. You simply cannot
account for
what the alternative outcomes might have been. If a person dies without
proper
gear, you cannot say with any actual certainty that they would have
survived
had they had the gear, particularly since so many have died with all of
the
right gear as well.


As I said, you can't prove outcomes, but you can certainly prove the
existing results. I've read too many incident reports to put aside the value
of extending one's survival time. Often, a survival suit can be a lifesaver
(such as the example where a planned day trip left the kayaker stuck on one
of the San Juan Islands overnight). While the cause of death is often listed
as drowning, hypothermia is equally as often a causal factor.

In May two experienced paddlers that I understand were wearing drysuits
and
pfd's were found dead in the water in Nootka Sound. We don't know what
happened
to them to cause their deaths. We can, however, be fairly certain that
their
rescue and safety gear was not much help.


Good point, though, as I said, nothing can guarantee survival.

While I agree that potential outcomes are not predictable, when someone
capsizes and complains about the cold, it is very easy to prove that they
were inadequately dressed and that their chance of survival would be
greater
if properly dressed.

Perhaps. But how much time do you actually need? I teach kayaking year
round
and generally dress for the air. I demonstrate wet exits and solo rescues
in
water as low as the low fifties, and rarely wear anything more then
shorts,
shirt and a paddling jacket. Do I get cold? You bet! Am I inadequately
dressed
to the point of significantly reducing my chances of survival? Well, in
ten
years of teaching I'm still alive. I must be doing right.

Training situations are rarely performed out of reach of shore, in deep
water, with few nearby resources. In conditions as you describe, just for
personal comfort, I'd wear a wetsuit, anyway (as I often have in the same
situation). Do I get cold? Not particularly. Am I overly dressed? No. This
particular conversation is more of a disagreement on what we each find more
comfortable, not what is safer. Personally, I prefer warm to cold. No doubt,
you are the opposite.

I pretty much dress the same way when I'm surfing or touring. But then,
I
never even consider coming out of the boat. I can't remember the last time
I
actually had to do a wet exit. But if I did I can assure you that I would
manage to get back into my boat again long before hypothermia became a
problem.
Of course I'm probably a bit more competent then the average paddler. But
there
again is an example that what works for me may not be right for you. I am
not
telling anyone to do things the way I do. I am just saying that I know
what
works for me.


What you do, as an expert boat handler, and what the needs of others are,
are at extreme opposites of the spectrum. I won't advocate dressing in less
than "adequate" immersion protection (which I will let the individual boater
decide for themselves) because the majority of boaters need it. I've had to
pull too many folks from the water and, invariably, they are all showing
severe signs of hypothermia: shivering, teeth chattering, cyanosis,
disrupted thought, and an irrational misunderstanding of how they reached
this state. As someone who hasn't had to do the rescues I've done, you
probably have a different perspective.

This is my choice of how I paddle. Others want to
avoid the water and assume they will not need the protection. Fine. On a
personal basis, however, I don't want to paddle with such individuals as
they endanger me.

This, of course, is your choice. I, on the other hand, will paddle with
just
about anybody. Just as I am confident in my ability to take care of
myself, I
am equally confident in my ability to take care of the people I am with. I
have
made open water crossings and played in rocks and caves and surf with
complete
novices. I have performed many a rescue under a variety of circumstances
and at
no time felt that I was ever in any danger from the other persons lack of
skill
or preparedness. I did go on one trip with a fellow who had absolutely no
common sense whatsoever. He frighten me, and I will no longer paddle with
him.


Scott, you may well be the best paddler on earth. I'll hand you the Ed
Gillette badge of skill and recommend that the San Diego Nudists only go
kayaking with you. I have no doubt that they'll be in good hands. On a
personal basis, I neither want, nor desire, to perform any more real
rescues. They are dangerous, scary, and the outcomes are often not what one
wishes to experience.

Rick