Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
... On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:11:19 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex rentals, many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it works fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending. Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. -- Glenn Ashmore Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what works for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type. Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration. We'll wait right here. Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous. Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any experience on the water? Ed |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote
Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress it's put under. From an engineering standpoint, Glenn's comments are 100% accurate. Epoxy saturation restores much of the strength in compression of the original wood, some of the shear strangth, and very littl of the strength in tension (which is wood's strongest point). Glenn Ashmore wrote: Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting Note- in the original part... it does little or nothing to stop leaks and prevent further rot around the margins of the saturated area! .... but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. This correspnds exactly with my experience. I've seen mooring cleats pull up out of rot-doctored decks which were hard as a rock from the epoxy. When fresh out of the military and needing something to do, a friend and I "restored" (or butchered, depending on who you talk to) an old classic racing yacht. The planking was sound but the structure and deck was spongy. We built a 6 point cradle with shaped frames, epoxy saturated much of the interior structure, and laid up an internal truss mimicking the original ribs & floors with some diagonals added. The boat had no stiffness or strength in the hull until we added fiberglass cloth along the truss members. After that, it was very strong & we raced the heck out of it. A few classic boat purists were upset at what we'd done, two or three even threatened us. But the boat would have become a mulch pile and we did this work in about 3 months instead of seven years to rebuild it the "right" way. YMMV Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
P.C. Ford ) writes: Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration. We'll wait right here. PC Ford has 30 years of experience with resins? Shocking! Is nothing sacred? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
I have been reading about a process of restoring rotten wood by soaking
resin into the wood making it as good as new or better. I am not an expert in this area. I just read a publication from West System about making minor and major repairs on fiberglass boats. It mentioned about methods of restoring wooden elements in a fiberglass boat. Their suggestion is to warm the wooden part and the mixed epoxy to allow the epoxy to flow better and deep into the wooden element. Nevertheless, they still recommend people to replace the wooden element instead of using epoxy to "fix" it under some situations (I don't remember what the situations are; I "guess" something like too many areas need to be repaired or the area is a critical structural element). You may want to get a copy of that publication for $3 (I bought mine from West Marine) to see what they have recommended. West System makes money by selling epoxy. If they ask people to replace the wood (under some situations) instead of using their products, I would think that they are onto something. Jay Chan |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
Hi
It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a few standard patches that fit with the router template. Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
"DSK" wrote in message
... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress it's put under. This is exactly what I said... it depends on the task. For the statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." to be made, it assumes that either it is unsuitable for ANY task, or that ALL tasks are the same. Neither of these assumptions are correct. I'll stand by what I said... it is a rediculous assertion. Ed |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:07:49 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote: "P.C. Ford" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:11:19 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex rentals, many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it works fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending. Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. -- Glenn Ashmore Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what works for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type. Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration. We'll wait right here. Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous. Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any experience on the water? Why yes I do. On sail and power. Do you have any experience restoring boats? You have swallowed boatshow handout propaganda whole. That's "stupid" and "rediculous".....to use your words. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
... On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:07:49 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous. Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any experience on the water? Why yes I do. On sail and power. Do you have any experience restoring boats? Why yes I do. Both sail and power. Woodworking and fiberglass. Using hand tools and power tools. If you count my dads boats that were the first I worked on, it has been over 40 years. Do I get a prize or something? You have swallowed boatshow handout propaganda whole. That's "stupid" and "rediculous".....to use your words. Ok... explain how I have done so. I haven't been to a boatshow in over 15 years. I'm talking real boats and real repairs. On Chesapeake Bay work boats, no less. Boats that go out at least 300 days a year. To say that a given repair method (especially the one being discussed) is "not up to the task" is utter bull****. It implies that a given method is not suited for any task. Do you believe this? Who is being rediculous? It ain't me. Ed |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
And I stand by what I said. I doubt that there is anyone on this newsgroup
working with timbers and anyone relying on soaking a rotten frame or stringer with Rot Doctor is asking for trouble. The only way they will get the same strength is to replace it, sister it or glass it after stabilizing it. A sound piece of clear fir has a tensile strength of about 12,600 PSI. CPES, the most commercially available epoxy wood stabilizer, has a tensile strength of around 4,500 PSI and, for fairly obvious reasons, there is no ANSI standard tensile strength of rotten wood. Even Rot Doctor recommends glass reinforcement for members subject to tension or shear. Rot also occurs primarily at the joint with another member. On an interior member like a frame or stringer that is usually the outboard side which is normally subject to the greatest tension. Unless the tensile strength is restored in one way or another the treated member will be a weak point and risks becoming the starting point for failure. Please pardon a short rant: I have been participating in this news group for 7 years and in that time have seen people espousing everything from antifreeze to aspirin to cure rot and curtain liner to wheat flour to save a few pennies on GRP lay-ups. It irritates me no end to hear people insisting on short cuts and off the wall ways to save a few bucks and screw up a job. I would guess that about half the participants in this news group are first time boat builders/restorers looking for advice. We have succeeded in chasing off all the pros so it is up to those of us with a little experience to guide them. That is a responsibility that should not be taken lightly. End rant: -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message ... "DSK" wrote in message ... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress it's put under. This is exactly what I said... it depends on the task. For the statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." to be made, it assumes that either it is unsuitable for ANY task, or that ALL tasks are the same. Neither of these assumptions are correct. I'll stand by what I said... it is a rediculous assertion. Ed |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:GGB2f.306$Kp4.137@lakeread08... . We have succeeded in chasing off all the pros End rant: With pointless little self serving rants I assume. Ed |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|