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-   -   Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww (https://www.boatbanter.com/whitewater/14691-looking-upgade-oc-1-ww.html)

Jim September 10th 03 01:20 AM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
About a year ago, I bought an Old Town Appalachian. My "home river"
is a steep creek in north GA called Amicalola creek, which has about
3.5 miles of arguably the the best whitewater in north GA. I've
paddled section III of the Chatooga on an overnighter, the Telico, and
the Nantahala with this boat and have become quite competent with very
heavy overnight loads and of course with no load.

I am 5'9" 160lb, and one day, on the Amicalola, i asked my common
paddling buddy, who paddles a Dagger Ovation, if he would let me
paddle his boat. I loved it! I swam in one rapid, but I was totally
sold (and haven't been able to think about much else since) when I
maneuvered through rock gardens with such ease.

Now I'm on the serious search for a WW canoe...either a Probe12, a
Probe 12 II, or an Outrage. I would like to still be able to load up
for an overnighter, but I also look forward to those day trips with no
loads.

Suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Pepe September 11th 03 02:55 AM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
Hey Jim NoGa rivers are my home waters too. Have you paddled the Lola
below the hwy 53 bridge? If you've gone over Edge of the World on that
big ole Appy you're a better man than me ;+D

I own both an Appy and also an OT Cascade which is the same design as
the Appy cept 14'10" vs 16' for the Appy. Me and my buds like to ww
canoe camp and it's hard to beat the Appy and Cascade for whitewater
trippin'. From what I understand the Appy and Cascade are paterned
after the old tried and true old design of the Chestnut Prospector
which was a favorite of the well known canoeing author, film maker etc
etc Bill Mason. The Appy and Cascade can take a serious load and still
handle pretty durn good in Class III water . Check out a 4 day trip me
and a coupla buds did last fall on the New in Wva at:

http://www.mindspring.com/~pepe3/newriver/

I too am ready for a more playfull boat. My buddy owns a Whitesell
Decender and I store it for him and have tried it a coupla times. I
felt pretty comfortable in it right away given the wide classic
Whitesell middle. Last summer I got to try an Outrage and man after
driving my 2 big barges that thing felt like I was in a taco with
power steering ;+D What fun!!! I'm right at the edge of the weight
limit (190) for the Outrage so it felt a little small for me. I'm
aiming to buy an Outrage X by next summer. The X is a foot longer and
it should have enough room for overnight gear so that's a big plus for
me.

A few weekends ago I got to play a little in a Rival and again at my
size/weight (5'11" 190lbs) it sure felt like I was pushing its
capacity limits.

Next time you're up at the Nanny try out a Whitesell. Coming from a
big boat like the Appy it might be an easier transition cause of the
wider tubier middle design. At your weight range you have lots of
boats to choose from so try out as many as you can. I believe the NOC
will also let you demo some boats.

Since you're looking to be able to camp also check out the Dagger
Caption which I believe is 14 ft'er. Can't say anything about it from
personal experience other than what I've read and what folks have told
me. It's a decent sized boat that still fun and playfull in white
water. I've heard rumors that Dagger is not gonna make any more WW
canoes. Anybody know if this is true?


Good luck!








(Jim) wrote in message . com...
About a year ago, I bought an Old Town Appalachian. My "home river"
is a steep creek in north GA called Amicalola creek, which has about
3.5 miles of arguably the the best whitewater in north GA. I've
paddled section III of the Chatooga on an overnighter, the Telico, and
the Nantahala with this boat and have become quite competent with very
heavy overnight loads and of course with no load.

I am 5'9" 160lb, and one day, on the Amicalola, i asked my common
paddling buddy, who paddles a Dagger Ovation, if he would let me
paddle his boat. I loved it! I swam in one rapid, but I was totally
sold (and haven't been able to think about much else since) when I
maneuvered through rock gardens with such ease.

Now I'm on the serious search for a WW canoe...either a Probe12, a
Probe 12 II, or an Outrage. I would like to still be able to load up
for an overnighter, but I also look forward to those day trips with no
loads.

Suggestions would be very much appreciated.


Dan Valleskey September 11th 03 04:47 AM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
On 10 Sep 2003 18:55:13 -0700, (Pepe) wrote:

snipsnip...

handle pretty durn good in Class III water . Check out a 4 day trip me
and a coupla buds did last fall on the New in Wva at:

http://www.mindspring.com/~pepe3/newriver/


Nice pictures! How did you turn the New into a 4 day trip? How far
up is it possible to put in? Where did you take out?

As to the rumor that Dagger is getting out of the WW canoe bidness-
check out the thread in rec.boats.paddle about royalex wearing out.
Could soft Royalex be a factor for them?

-Dan


Jim September 11th 03 06:27 PM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
Very cool photos, Pepe. Nice presentation of them, too. Really cool
to hear from a fellow Lola paddler. Yes, the old "Appy" has fallen
off the Edge of the World many times. I've only owned a boat for a
year, but have been paddling with my friend and his
16'-i-don't-know-what for several years, although I've paddled much
more frequently in the past year. I wouldn't call myself a "better
man," though, because it's quite the contrary. We started young and
were too dumb to know better. So I've pretty much mastered the Edge
in a large boat just out of foolishness. You should have seen that
big ole thing on Bull Sluice and Jarrod's Knee...must have been quite
a sight judging from people's reactions. But it is a very very stable
boat.
I too considered the OutrageX. It looks ideal. But after I thought
more about it, I decided that I would probably still take the old Appy
on overnighters and maybe get a Probe 12 II and use it on my day
trips. The probe seems like it would still be a pretty good ride
after the rapids are over and I settle into the Etowah portion of the
lower Lola. I know I should paddle a few different types of boats at
the Nanny, and maybe I will, but I don't get up that far north very
often and I'm getting a little anxious for a smaller boat.
Thanks for the input.

Pepe September 12th 03 05:03 AM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
Thanks Dan. You make the trip last that long by only paddling 6 to 8
miles a day and staying at camps more than one day. When we hit a nice
site we like to hang out sleep late, fish and explore the land and do
some photography. Besides the exploring and other fun stuff it breaks
the monotony of pack and unpack every day.

Actually we we're gonna go for 5 days cept it rained 3 of the 4 days
and the levels kept rising and our weather radios said the temps were
gonna drop another 10 deg and heavier rains were on the way. We put in
at 2.5 ft and when I checked the gauges the day after we took out it
was in the 3.5 range. On our last day the rain were something fierce
and there were sudden gusts of wind that would side swipe our boats
like a floating leaf. I remember lining up on the tongue to enter
Silo (I think that was the rapids name) and a gust of wind came and
slid me side ways to a big drop. My boat noseed dived and was half way
swamped and I still had to go at least what seemed like a 100+ yds of
3 + ft wave trains. With the boat half full of water plus all the gear
it took all I had to keep the boat head into the waves so I would
dump. Whew!! ;+D

As far a put ins and take outs I'm not really sure of the names but I
think we put in at Sandstone aiming to take out at Thurmond. Does that
sound right?





(Dan Valleskey) wrote in message . com...
On 10 Sep 2003 18:55:13 -0700,
(Pepe) wrote:

snipsnip...

handle pretty durn good in Class III water . Check out a 4 day trip me
and a coupla buds did last fall on the New in Wva at:

http://www.mindspring.com/~pepe3/newriver/


Nice pictures! How did you turn the New into a 4 day trip? How far
up is it possible to put in? Where did you take out?

As to the rumor that Dagger is getting out of the WW canoe bidness-
check out the thread in rec.boats.paddle about royalex wearing out.
Could soft Royalex be a factor for them?

-Dan


Pepe September 12th 03 05:33 AM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
Thanks Jim. We have some great photos including the Lola of most if
not all the WW rivers in No ga and nearby states. When I get some time
and we catalog our pixs we're gonna put up a site with slide shows for
all the rivers. I'm hoping I get enough time soon to put together a
slide show of another 4 day trip we did on the Big South Fork this
spring.

Have you ever done Talking Rock creek? It's a great overnight trip and
an absolutly beautifull river. I am the StreamKeeper on the AWA site
for Talking Rock and maintain a page there with links to pixs from an
overnighter a coupla year back. Check out the page at:

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/rivers/id/503/

Man that's gotta be a sight to see that big Appy going over Edge of
the World!!
Do you have any outfitting or flotation in that Appy? I have small
float bags fore and aft and have a kneeling thwart in the middle for
soloing. I still keep the seats in it for the occasional tandem with
newbie friends. I've yet to paddle below hwy 53 mostly because I
thought it would be crazy to try that in my big boats but now you've
inpired me or maybe its some kinda form of contagious
insanity.......;+D It don't look like a fun place to swim if you dump
after the first drop. I'm trying to get up to Sec III of the Toog in
the next coupla weeks.

I tell ya I'm hankering for a small boat too but I sure do love
paddling my big boats. Lately I've been working on mastering paddling
more standing up and I'm looking to get me a 6 ft paddle soon.








(Jim) wrote in message om...
Very cool photos, Pepe. Nice presentation of them, too. Really cool
to hear from a fellow Lola paddler. Yes, the old "Appy" has fallen
off the Edge of the World many times. I've only owned a boat for a
year, but have been paddling with my friend and his
16'-i-don't-know-what for several years, although I've paddled much
more frequently in the past year. I wouldn't call myself a "better
man," though, because it's quite the contrary. We started young and
were too dumb to know better. So I've pretty much mastered the Edge
in a large boat just out of foolishness. You should have seen that
big ole thing on Bull Sluice and Jarrod's Knee...must have been quite
a sight judging from people's reactions. But it is a very very stable
boat.
I too considered the OutrageX. It looks ideal. But after I thought
more about it, I decided that I would probably still take the old Appy
on overnighters and maybe get a Probe 12 II and use it on my day
trips. The probe seems like it would still be a pretty good ride
after the rapids are over and I settle into the Etowah portion of the
lower Lola. I know I should paddle a few different types of boats at
the Nanny, and maybe I will, but I don't get up that far north very
often and I'm getting a little anxious for a smaller boat.
Thanks for the input.


Michael Bolton September 14th 03 10:04 PM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
(Jim) wrote in message om...
I too considered the OutrageX. It looks ideal. But after I thought
more about it, I decided that I would probably still take the old Appy
on overnighters and maybe get a Probe 12 II and use it on my day
trips. The probe seems like it would still be a pretty good ride
after the rapids are over and I settle into the Etowah portion of the
lower Lola. I know I should paddle a few different types of boats at
the Nanny, and maybe I will, but I don't get up that far north very
often and I'm getting a little anxious for a smaller boat.
Thanks for the input.


Take a look at the Shaman as well if you can. It's quite fast...nice
on those flat stretches, plenty manueverable, surprisingly stable for
it's width...yet playful, is incredible for attainments, and has size
to carry some gear without losing to much performance.
Mike

Jim September 15th 03 05:48 PM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
(Michael Bolton) wrote in message

Take a look at the Shaman as well if you can. It's quite fast...nice
on those flat stretches, plenty manueverable, surprisingly stable for
it's width...yet playful, is incredible for attainments, and has size
to carry some gear without losing to much performance.
Mike


Mike, thanks for the recomendation. I've looked at alot of boats, but
for some reason hadn't taken the time to read about the Shaman. Now
that I've looked into it, this seems like a great boat. I've been a
little cautious about what skill level is associated with my next
boat, and now that I've learned a little about some of the techniques
associated with a whitewater paddling (weight shifts for efficient
maneuvering, paddling techniques, etc.) I realize that while I do like
stability, I do also want to take my paddling to the next level.
Sounds like this boat will allow for the traditional maneuvering
techniques and still be somewhat stable. Do you know how it compares
in stability to the Ovation? And I guess I'm still a little concerned
about how dry it will be.

Jim September 15th 03 08:44 PM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
Have you ever done Talking Rock creek? It's a great overnight trip and
an absolutly beautifull river.
Do you have any outfitting or flotation in that Appy?



Pepe, I saw the pics at aw.org, and you are quite the photographer. I
have wondered about Talking rock before and wanted to try it. Are
there good stretches of class II/III or only a few rapids spread out?
And are there multiple put-ins and take-outs, or does it have to be a
long trip?

About my outfitting, I've taken out the rear seat (which is in the
front since I paddle the boat backwards) and put in a large float bag
with an aprin over it to avoid scooping water when I drop into pools.
I have a kneeling pad just behind center and get up into my seat and
paddle when I'm not in rough water.

Michael Bolton September 16th 03 02:27 AM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
(Jim) wrote in message . com...

Jim,
To me the Shaman doesn't quite feel as "spinny" as say the Outrage or
Rival, but it's somewhat deceptive as I've had no problem catching
really small eddies. I found the Outrage X to feel more like a bigger
boat after hopping out of my Shaman, but it too still paddles awfully
nice.
The Shaman is really stable and comfortable crossing weird currents,
running through turbulent water, etc. To me it's one of the most
stable feeling WW OC-1s, yet it doesn't give up in the performance
end. I guess it can be a bit wet, although I'm not sure if it'd be any
wetter than any of the others you've mentioned (except maybe the
Ovation. It's incredibly quick for its size. I'm surprised it's not a
more popular boat. Harold Deal is really nice to talk to about it if
you have technical questions.

I don't have too much experience in the Ovation. I've only paddled one
twice for short stretches. It felt very stable but somewhat sluggish.
I paddled with some friends this summer, and the guy in the Ovation
seemed to have a harder time attaining some of the waves...but some of
that was paddler skill too.
Personally, I'd get an Ocoee over the Ovation as it feels waayyy
sportier, and learning to get used to the edge. It offers much more
performance and fun.

But for a boat that is playful but can still carry some gear, I'd
definately give the Shaman a look..or talk to Craig at Mohawk or
Harold Deal!

Good Luck,
Mike

Pepe September 16th 03 02:30 AM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
Pepe, I saw the pics at aw.org, and you are quite the photographer.

Thanks Jim I have a background in Fine Art photography and have worked
as
a pro in advertizing and architectural photography but it's been quite
a few
years since I've done any photography for a living with any
regularity. All the
photography you've seen is all done with a point and shoot Pentax WR90
and of course I tweaked the images in Photoshop. Recently I bought a
waterproof enclosure so I can take my Nikon but it's still quite bulky
and cumbersome to take on the river. It's pretty hard to beat the WR90
for convenience, rugedness, waterproofness in a small package to hang
from my PFD.


I have wondered about Talking rock before and wanted to try it. Are
there good stretches of class II/III or only a few rapids spread out?
And are there multiple put-ins and take-outs, or does it have to be a
long trip?

About my outfitting, I've taken out the rear seat (which is in the
front since I paddle the boat backwards) and put in a large float bag
with an aprin over it to avoid scooping water when I drop into pools.
I have a kneeling pad just behind center and get up into my seat and
paddle when I'm not in rough water.



Most of the decent rapids are after about the half way point which is
where
the cliffs and Talking Rock Rapids are located and from what I
understand
those cliffs are "Talking Rock". The highest I've ever done it is like
2.6 and
the rapids are very tame and I don't know if I would classify any of
them
above II+ at that level. On the other hand down at the bottom of my
AWA page
some other fellow posted some images of TRock rapids at 4+ feet and it
looks
quite fun. There are 2 put ins listed in one of the No. Ga canoeing
guides
by Sehlinger and Otey. I've only used the one listed on the map link I
have
on the AWA site. From what I understand to put in at the higher one it
has
to be running near the 3 ft range and it's not very scenic and it's
fairly
populated. As far as take outs there are none listed in the books I've
looked at or have heard of other than going all the way to the HWY 136
take
out at the lake. I've traced the distance in my Topo and total trip to
the
lake take out is 14 miles. It's generally a 6 hour trip at an easy
pace with
lunch and pee/stretch stops.

Some one once told me that they took out before the flat last coupla
miles.
ther's generally pretty good head winds on those flats. They took out
on private land. Someone they were with knew the folks that owned the
land. So short of knowing someone with some land up there it's a 14
mile, 6hr +/- paddle The trip is definetly worth it but I much prefer
it as an overnighter.

I never use the seats in the Appy even with the boat backwards when
soloing.
The boat gets very bow light and doesn't track very well and if theres
a
little wind then it's extra dificult to paddle straight because of the
weather cocking. I have found that the most efficient way to paddle
the Appy
in flat water is Canadian style which is where you kneel just aft of
center
and shift the weight and your knees to your "on side" this in effect
tilts
the boat to your on side and the boat chine becomes sort of a keel
line.
This helps to track better plus puts you closer to the gunwales where
you
don't hafta reach out as far to keep your paddle perpendicular to the
water and keeps your corrective strokes to a minimum.I'm not sure
about this but I believe it also minimizes the boat to watercontact
area offering less resistance. I'm my New river pix page there are a
coupla shots that my bud took of me in my red Cascade from behind
where you see my boat heavily listing to the left. I you haven't yet
tried this give it a go and you'll be surprised at the difference of
how the Appy will paddle in flat water. Having a kneeling thwart near
mid boat is great for this type of paddling.

Jim September 16th 03 05:32 PM

Looking for that upgade to the oc-1 ww
 
I'm not sure if it'd be any
wetter than any of the others you've mentioned


But for a boat that is playful but can still carry some gear, I'd
definately give the Shaman a look..or talk to Craig at Mohawk or
Harold Deal!

Good Luck,
Mike


I couldn't wait to sit in my new Outrage. Then after reading more and
more I was imagining being on my favorite section of my favorite river
in my new Probe 12. Then I decided to take it up one small notch with
a Probe12II. I put a picture of it on my computer desktop and
couldn't wait to make the purchase.

The picture has been changed to a Shaman.

I didn't really consider the Ovation. It just happened to be the boat
I was paddling when I knew I needed another boat. You probably make a
good point about the Shaman being as dry as any other boat of its
type. It will just give me an opportunity to practice blocking, I
guess, which sounds like a very fun thing to learn. And it very much
appears to me that with carefull trimming I wouldn't loose very much
performance at all with a load.

Thanks again. Maybe I'll be reporting my first run soon.


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