Rolling, How many know how.
 

Here in Newfoundland Canada most hard core paddlers can roll a boat but
most paddlers are not hard core. I would guess that only 10% of sea
kayakers here have a roll; any roll!!!.
We see a bomb proof roll as 10 or 12 consecutive rolls with no
failures. I see it as a surprise upset in frigid water and in an
exceptional case done with the spare paddle.
I have never gone over by accident and been preset for a roll.
What are your thoughts?

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here in Newfoundland Canada most hard core paddlers can roll a boat but
most paddlers are not hard core. I would guess that only 10% of sea
kayakers here have a roll; any roll!!!.
We see a bomb proof roll as 10 or 12 consecutive rolls with no
failures. I see it as a surprise upset in frigid water and in an
exceptional case done with the spare paddle.
I have never gone over by accident and been preset for a roll.
What are your thoughts?

Until you have it you don't know if it will work.

On flat water I can roll until I'm knackered - usually. left, right, half
rolls. If I can hold my breathe long enough I can make an awkward capsize,
position the blade and roll up. I'm not the best, but I can do it. When I
cock it up trying something stupid I can usually roll back up.

However, I have only once capsized on white water. I was in an eddy along
with about five others. the eddy current pushed us up the eddy, and into an
overhanging tree. I have never capsized delibaretaly as fast as that
happened, and there was no room to use the paddle to roll, and doing an
eskomo off the side of another boat would have brought them in too - so I
came out.

On white water I have so far managed to avoid capsize through being careful
and using high brace supports - or punting to stay upright. It is only a
matter of time before I do go over in the stream though, and until it
happens I won't know if I can do it or not. I'm afraid that rolling on
white water when there may be some skull crushing rock at just the right
depth is not something I am keen to practice :-) Though perhaps I should.

Ewan Scott

wrote:
Here in Newfoundland Canada most hard core paddlers can roll a boat but
most paddlers are not hard core. I would guess that only 10% of sea
kayakers here have a roll; any roll!!!.

I would say we (TSKC) have better than 10% "any roll", and most of those
that don't have it are working on it. I don't know how many could roll
a sea boat "in anger" as it's very unusual IME for them to go over. I
suspect that the numbers that could do it "in anger" are well down on
those that can do it in a pool or training situation.

We see a bomb proof roll as 10 or 12 consecutive rolls with no
failures. I see it as a surprise upset in frigid water and in an
exceptional case done with the spare paddle.

Surf landings increase one's chances of going over quite a bit. Someone
once suggested that the club should stay away from surf as it increased
chances of problems, but it was pointed out that a sea layak club that
avoids all surf is like a mountain bike club that avoids hills, and if
you don't practice in the easier stuff you're almost certain to be
trashed in harder stuff /when you don't have any choice/.

I have never gone over by accident and been preset for a roll.

It depends how one defines "by accident". In surf it's quite possible
to be trying to stay up but knowing that in the next couple of moments
your stern rudder is no longer going to be enough on that particular
wave. In such a situation you can at least choose to jump before you're
pushed and try and set up at least to some extent.

When I'm practising I start with set up palawtas, then move on to set up
screws. And then move on to very deliberately not set up palwatas and
screws (though of course I still know I'm going over... the one time I
fell out of a sea boat (excepting comedy entrance/exit fiascos) was a
completely crap unintentional capsize while I was scratching my nose and
watching a rescue practise while in a tippier-than-I-usually-paddle
unladen borrowed boat. Got a mouthfull of brackish water to choke on,
failed a first bad attempt and being 5m from shore bailed). In the pool
I always wear a nose clip because the chemicals /hurt/ my sinuses. In
the river I wear clips to keep infections at bay, and wear them while
I'm surfing anyway so it's not unrelaistic to have them on. Also in
surf it's not entirely uncommon for them to come off, so I've done quite
a few rolls without them.

One of the main things about a good roll is the increase in overall
confidence if you start paddling into a tricky situation. Knowing that
you're very unlikely to be swimming, even if you go over, helps one deal
with the situation more optimally than if you're tense because you're
bloody terrified.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I would have to agree. Skulling for support with your body to the ear
in the water is great for impressing girls. It also defines where you
can put the boat on that plane. ( everywhere ) . Practically though, it
has no real purpose. It does make side surfing with a high brace seem
easy.
I have some wild roll stories but a good roll is what makes a confident
brace possible in my mind.
There is an old guy here that can roll a canoe. It is a cool but
useless trick. It comes up full of water.
Alex

wrote:

There is an old guy here that can roll a canoe. It is a cool but
useless trick. It comes up full of water.

Canoes are available that have spray decks and don't fill up with
water. Whitewater C1s being the most obvious examples.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would have to agree. Skulling for support with your body to the ear
in the water is great for impressing girls. It also defines where you
can put the boat on that plane. ( everywhere ) . Practically though, it
has no real purpose. It does make side surfing with a high brace seem
easy.

Sculling from that position and being able to recover from that position is
a big help in rolling. In fact some of my students have realised that in
carrying out a roll, if they can get the boat to that sculling position, a
couple of scull strokes can get them up. On a recent test one of them got
his paddle all wrong and ended up having run out of downward sweep and was
still upside down. he sculled a couple of times and flicked up. The examiner
questioned it, but nonetheless he had rolled using a sculling stroke.

Ewan Scott

If the examiner is female my point is made.
Just kidding .
That is an exercise i do at the beginning of most trips just to warm up
and get the feel of the water and my boat with todays load.

As for my standards, as far as I am concerned : If you are upright,
breathing air and in the seat it was a successfull roll.
I don't care if there are a dozen attempts, three splash saves and
intervention from the Holy Gohst, a roll is successfull when you are
upright and in the boat.
The extended paddle ( pawata ) roll is one of my favourites to teach
people. It is successful almost every time even with poor form and
technique. Success builds success.
People successfull with this roll on their strong side will go off side
then do C to C 's Skulling , Screw , etc. some go on to do storm and
every other type of combat roll i can think of.

That said, outside of the close company I keep, most paddlers I see on
the water rent boats and have little idea of self rescue and few know
how to roll. Most of my paddling friends have good skill levels but
there are a lot of occasional paddlers out there and some solid skilled
paddlers that don't have a clue on how to roll.
Alex McGruer
..

He is an old guy and i doubt he could pull a fully bouyant open
(Canadian) canoe over.

To expand on that, The guy that rolled a canoe here was an ol fellow ,
a true enthusiast. It was a 16 foot boat , nothing fancy he leaned it
till it took on wate and dunped over then he did a skulling screw type
roll that brought it up. He is in his sixties ( perhaps older ).
This was not a Clipper or one of the river boats with all the boyancy.
He was braced under a thwart. It was wild.

Just catching up after doing this weeks night shifts. Here's that link again
foranyone who missed it.
http://www.useakayak.org/reflec_rolling_5_02.html

I seem to remember being taught to roll a few years back when I did that
kayaking course in the pool. When I mentioned the local canoe/kayak club to
my friend he said that he might join in order to do the pool sessions over
the winter. He has been sea kayaking for two years now and cannot roll. I
was surprised by this.
Now for the science bit. Which type of kayak is the easiest to roll ?
--
Muzz
send mail to muzzmackay@'7thletterof thealphabet'mail.com

Muzz wrote:

Now for the science bit. Which type of kayak is the easiest to roll ?

IM(not colossal)E the ones that are easiest to roll up are the ones that
are easiest to roll down to start with... Wider boats tend to be more
stable as you have to tip them over further to pass the Point Of No
Return, but once they do go then the same properties that kept them the
right way up before now help to keep them upside down...

Beyond that, boats with an effective brace point inside are, all other
things being equal, easier to roll up. I had quite a bit of trouble
rolling a Feathercarft because I couldn't brace myself well in it, and
the seat would move!

One of the easiest sea boat I've found to roll so far is the Valley
Anasacuta. It's certainly much easier to bring up than my Selkie, but
the Selkie is a very broad craft and much more stable to start with.
AIUI there was a flat rear deck version made especially for surf rescue.
The Anas is also easier to bring up than my river/surf boat, a Whip-It
where the hard edge on the hull makes it quite a bit harder than a BAT
to roll.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

My Capella and Explorer roll well. I have a WS Sealution that is a bit
tougher to bring up . The Aquaterra Chinook's we use are about the
same.
The Greenland / Broitish boats have a nice line for rolling up.
I think you have it right, if it is hard to put it over it is hard to
bring it back.

"Muzz" wrote in message
...

Now for the science bit. Which type of kayak is the easiest to roll ?


The easiest boat to roll is one that you fit in properly. Eg, I cannot roll
a polo boat. BUT this is because I fall out as soon as I go upside down
because it is not fitted to me and I can't reach the footpegs. I have
however rolled my I:3 (once, fluke, don't count it as being able to roll),
which is padded out around my hips and where I can press against the
footrest and the thigh braces.

Charlie.

I'm not a hard core paddler (or hard core anything else) but I can easily
manage the first phase of a roll anytime!

Keith

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here in Newfoundland Canada most hard core paddlers can roll a boat but
most paddlers are not hard core. I would guess that only 10% of sea
kayakers here have a roll; any roll!!!.

A Ha . Truth at last.
For the folks that paddle routinely on the sea and more for those
involved in white water I think most likely have some semblance of a
roll. BCU 3 star insists only on a knowledge of how a roll works but
does not go far past that and you don't need to complete an actual
roll. CRCA 1 in Canada is the same. Most paddlers I am sure don't go
far past this level.
Of the people I routinely paddle with most has a passable roll but the
folks I paddle with at night and on drop of the hat trips are not
average.
While white water is very different, I suspect the number of folks with
a roll is less than we think.

"Muzz" wrote in message
...
Just catching up after doing this weeks night shifts. Here's that link
again
foranyone who missed it.
http://www.useakayak.org/reflec_rolling_5_02.html

I seem to remember being taught to roll a few years back when I did that
kayaking course in the pool. When I mentioned the local canoe/kayak club
to
my friend he said that he might join in order to do the pool sessions over
the winter. He has been sea kayaking for two years now and cannot roll. I
was surprised by this.
Now for the science bit. Which type of kayak is the easiest to roll ?
--

I've got a selection of boats to try and it is an interesting question. A
boat with a rounded hull is always going to be "easier" to roll. The
difficulty is stopping it rolling once you get back upright :-)

A flatter bottomed boat such as a Whippet/ Whiplash will roll steadily and
come up smoothly, and be stable when you complete the roll. My old Riot goes
over in two stages, and comes back up in two stages. The Wavesport Z is a
bugger it has as much beam as the average canal boat , and they don't come
up when they roll. In the Z it is a cert that you have to leave your head
till last and really make a last minute effort to come up. The EZ is much
easier. The Inazone is a doddle to roll, but it's low rear deck (with my
weight in it) catches easily so you need to be able to recover yourself
(especially with my low experience level).

You just need to adjust your roll to suit the boat.

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

I've got a selection of boats to try and it is an interesting question. A
boat with a rounded hull is always going to be "easier" to roll.

Try a Valley Anasacuta... it has a hard chined angular hull and is
an absolute breeze to roll. Point being that you need to think of
relatively minor shape change with distance against major discrete
steps rather than just "rounded or not".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/