Rescuing capsized paddlers (kayak) when you are small, weak and female...
 

Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

I also find it difficult, particularly with larger individuals to get
them back into the kayak. They usually find the
lie-on-your-back-and-get-your-feet-in first method is easiest for them
so this is the method I often use. It takes all of my strength and both
hands to hold their kayak so I am unable to assist them in anyway.
There have been times when I 've been pretty close to not being able to
hold the boat for them.

As I instruct solo (despite strong suggestions to the management this
may not be the best idea) I find this quite scary. I am the only
competent person with a group of eight novices. What if the victim is
too shocked to help me open the boat? What if I physically cannot get
the peron back into the boat because they are too heavy?

I would really appreciate any (useful) feedback and hints and tips from
you guys on both these aspects of the rescue (incidentally my technique
using the above methods is fine - it is strength that is lacking).
Thanks very much for your help.

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH

In message .com
"peter" wrote:

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH


I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat (not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

Alan Adams wrote:
In message .com
"peter" wrote:


ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:

Hi there,


snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH



I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat (not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.



There are several ways of getting people back in. A listed few

1) The old traditional, opposite direction one as discussed above...
well that one is hard work, involves twisting and is very physical for
me as rescuer. Not recommended by me anymore.

2) The across deck, as discussed above - pretty good for small paddlers,
not so good with big paddlers, and little work for me ;-)

3) Boat to the side, victim comes up and across MY deck, using their
boat to pull themselves in. Victim needs to stay close to my Centre of
Gravity. Seems to work for most people, most sizes, except for the
extremely weak / unco-ordinated. This is my FAV, least work method.

4) Boat to the side, victim comes in on their boat's side at the cockpit
- I lift my side of the cockpit slightly so that I help to "scoop" them
into the boat. Works with smaller victims, who can almost swim in.

5) Boat to side, stabilized by me, victim climbs in up the tail of their
boat. Consider where you stabilize the boat - the bigger the person, the
nearer the nose you want to put your weight.

6) Use a looped sling to give the paddler a foot hold. Works best when
the paddler is on the far side of the boat from you. There are a number
of techniques for getting the foot "strop" - including clipping to you
(yuck!) Looping from a paddle shaft underneath the two boats, over the
victims - Over victims boat, under your boat, and back to your hand (a
friction based strop). Take you pick.

And my all time favourite...

7) There's the bank mate... off you go and get yourself in there. I
don't know how many times I have seen coaches (and others) struggle to
get people back in when there's a nearby bank.


Emptying boats

1) If there is a usable bank - use it.

2) If you have to empty it - use the victim or a nearby paddler. There
is no point straining yourself. I do, and I'm big 'n' strong. They fell
in after all ;-)

First get victim's bow onto your boat: Get boats lined up in T-shape -
send paddler to far end of their boat, and get them to push down and
swim to you. You grab the bow, and hold it on your deck. (TIP: Always go
for the bow first - this way the boats empty much better)

Second - get victim (or a.n.other paddler) to grab bow and pull across
your boat. The victim needs to swim to the other side of your boat from
their boat. Both feet on the side of you boat , grab boat with their
hands, and pull...

So far I have done no work...

Third - empty boat. Use the swimmer or another paddler - get them to
pull down on the bow. If you got the bow first, then that is the boat
empty enough for victim.

So far - still no work - difficult bit to come

Fourth - righting the boat - that's my job. Two hands on cockpit, raise
boat on to side. One hand grabs exposed bit of cockpit, and a push/pull
and boat is right way up, and right in front of you.

Phew... wasn't that hard work?

Tip: Always fit boats with air bags - it makes the rescue so much easier.



Sorry if this is teaching to suck eggs - just see too many people
struggling / hurting themselves.

HTH HAND

Peter

On 2 Feb 2005 08:13:57 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

I am a similar size and weight to yourself and too almost exclusively
work alone, admitedly recently with fairly small groups. If the
capsizee (ok it's not a word...) exits the boat while it's upside down
then there is very little water in the boat and it is just a case of
making sure you get the cockpit out of the water quick enough so you
don't fill the boat up. This isn't difficult once you've worked out
the technique. However the capsizee often doesn't exit cleanly in
which case there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking them to
assist you in emptying the boat.

I also find it difficult, particularly with larger individuals to get
them back into the kayak. They usually find the
lie-on-your-back-and-get-your-feet-in first method is easiest for them
so this is the method I often use. It takes all of my strength and both
hands to hold their kayak so I am unable to assist them in anyway.
There have been times when I 've been pretty close to not being able to
hold the boat for them.

What other ways have you tried? A lot of people find the
lay-back-in-the-water method hard unless you're quite agile. I often
use the drag-yourself-over-the-side method or a short sling on a
paddle as a foot hold. Or if all else fails get them to shore and get
them back in (since I'll be close to shore with unsteady beginners).
Or get other members of the group to help steady the boat. Or...

If you are steadying the boat on your own, try getting your body right
over their boat, so your boat is on quite an edge. Use both hands on
the boat if you need to (I do). You can do more to keep their boat
stable than you can do to drag them in.


As I instruct solo (despite strong suggestions to the management this
may not be the best idea) I find this quite scary. I am the only
competent person with a group of eight novices. What if the victim is
too shocked to help me open the boat? What if I physically cannot get
the peron back into the boat because they are too heavy?

Speak to your managers again. The 1:8 ratio is just a GUIDELINE
depending on the group and the conditions. I have often taken more and
just as often refused to take less. If you are really not happy with a
group size then any decent manager won't make you take them (alone).
If they still won't listen put it in writing, keep a copy, and look
for someone decent to work for (seriously).

If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been teaching kayaking,
what sort of level are you paddling at? I get the impression that
you've not been doing it that long. Do you get much opportunity to
work with more experienced coaches?


I would really appreciate any (useful) feedback and hints and tips from
you guys on both these aspects of the rescue (incidentally my technique
using the above methods is fine - it is strength that is lacking).
Thanks very much for your help.

With a good technique you don't really need much strength, but it is a
case of learning really good technique. Anyway I've rambled enough.
Hope some of this helps.

--
Ste, Ambleside

We use the second method, too climbing onto the front of the boat and we
manage it in polo boats. It's all a matter of balance...

Charlie.

"Alan Adams" wrote in message
...
In message .com
"peter" wrote:

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH


I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat
(not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a
Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb
far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a
major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the
strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Maybe I just need to have more confidence in my own abilities (and
learn to roll confidently). Its the what ifs that are the issue. What
if a client accidentally knocks me out with their paddle?

First time I was asked to go out on my own I was pretty horrified. I
know what the ratios are but one coach off site seemed a bit
(potentially) unsafe. I said I wasnt happy, my boss said not a problem
but if you cant do it we cant count your qualification and your wages
will be docked accordingly. Fair enough.

Im very grateful for all your feedback. Never again will I feel guilty
making a client help empty their boat. Geting them back in using a
sling sounds interesting - whats a good length to use? Is it likely to
snap your paddle?

For those of you who coach what ratios do you use? Is it usual for you
to take a novice group on your own.? Thanks again...

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

snip

Personally, I don't like working with no other backup either. I had an
incident a couple of years back, where I was concussed badly by a stray
paddle (unusualy I even had a helmet on that occasion). On the water in
a docks environment, with 8 kids, and one was classifiable as
uncoordinated.

The centre I help at uses a ratio of 1:6 with a minimum of 2 coaches on
the water. So the worst case is 2:12 / 3:18. I see this as sensible, and
employ that for my club, where we always have 2 people with a group
(although the second is sometimes a good 3* preferably with CST, because
we aren't blessed with coaches)

So, even as a more experienced, higher qualified coach, I agree with
your reluctance to do 1:8 in a remote location. Working for a centre, do
you have a risk assessment for this activity? What do they regard as the
risks?

Good Luck

Peter

On 2 Feb 2005 08:13:57 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

I teach mostly kids between ages 10 and 18, we do odd sessions with
younger groups. At some point we have to do rescue with them all.

There is absolutely no problem with using the victim to help empty the
boat. In fact if they are not panicking it gives them something to
keep their mind off the cold. If you can get the capsized boat our of
the water and onto your deck, then use the victim to assist. You can't
afford to waste time pratting about trying to be Mr Universe.

If you have problems getting some paddlers in. We have one lad who
weighs in at about 16 stone and he's only 14! Ask yourself what the
aim is. Is it to pass an assessment? If so you need to get him in on
your own, one way or another. If it is for real, the aim is to get him
back in the boat regardless of style.

You would nornmally have advised your party to raft up in the event of
a capsize - one presumes. Those in the raft are relatively safe and
secure. So, you could either ask the better of the group to come and
hold the opposite side of the boat steady whilst your victim clambers
in. Or, you could use the end body on the raft as support for the
other side of the boat. His own boat secured by the next person in the
raft.

I've had three 3 star paddlers involved in rescuing this big lad. he
has sunk two instructors and flooded his own boat in rescues, so if in
that situation you need to find a way that works for you - even if it
isn't textbook.

Ewan Scott

"I've had three 3 star paddlers involved in rescuing this big lad. he
has sunk two instructors and flooded his own boat in rescues, so if in
that situation you need to find a way that works for you - even if it
isn't textbook. "

Thats the sort of situation I am worried about - any ideas for
unorthodox methods?

For waht its worth the others don't raft up if there is a capsize
a) beyond their abilities
b) they would really catch the wind and be miles away by the time
rescue completed.

On 3 Feb 2005 03:37:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

snip
Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Working out a way of keeping the group close together and close to the
shore will make your life easier. For example, if you're doing a
little journey use short legs to definite points and each time you
stop do some teaching/a game/etc. Experiment. Find something that
works for you and your location.

Maybe I just need to have more confidence in my own abilities (and
learn to roll confidently). Its the what ifs that are the issue. What
if a client accidentally knocks me out with their paddle?

Hopefully all the what-ifs should be dealt with in the risk assessment
and operating procedure. Is there a reasonable method of getting
assistance if required? (Not necessarily an emergency.)

First time I was asked to go out on my own I was pretty horrified. I
know what the ratios are but one coach off site seemed a bit
(potentially) unsafe. I said I wasnt happy, my boss said not a problem
but if you cant do it we cant count your qualification and your wages
will be docked accordingly. Fair enough.

They could have been a bit more constructive though and helped to find
a solution rather than what sounds like blackmail!

Im very grateful for all your feedback. Never again will I feel guilty
making a client help empty their boat. Geting them back in using a
sling sounds interesting - whats a good length to use? Is it likely to
snap your paddle?

I think it's a 4'/120cm sling (I always get confused about sling
sizes!), and it's a case of using it close to the boat so you don't
get a big leverage on the paddle. I'd recommend having a practice with
it (there are a few different ways to use it) before you have to use
it for real (it tends to be a last resort for me).

For those of you who coach what ratios do you use? Is it usual for you
to take a novice group on your own.? Thanks again...

I don't have a fixed ratio. It depends on the group, the conditions
and what we're trying to do. I seem to have been lucky in that
everywhere I've worked I've had a manager who's supported me if I've
turned round and said that I didn't feel a situation was appropriate.
In the end it's you that are out there on the water having to deal
with whatever happens. However any centre wants to get the highest
client : instructor ratio possible for financial reasons so it isn't
unusual for an instructor to have a group of beginners on their own.

--
Ste, Ambleside

I guess I am unsure as to whether I actually am Lvl 2 Kayak coach
standard - surely if I was I wouldn't be worrying like this.... :(

In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

What do you when one kid decides he/she's too scared to go paddling - you
can't leave them on the shore on their own, you can't abandon the session
because your transport has gone. You'll probably end up having to play beach
games with no advance planning and unhappy kids. I've been in that situation
with 12-year-olds and had to exert quite a lot of pressure to get them on
the water. At the very least I'd want one of the group's own adults to be
present. You shouldn't rely on mobile phones for safety - too much can go
wrong, starting with water, low batteries...

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager ended
up in jail.

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

First of all the rant! Your employer is being un reasonable in what they
appear to be blackmailing you into! Get out and work for someone decent!

Now the paddling. No shame in struggling to empty a master. They are big
and have very little bouyancy if not airbagged, and I get my 'victim' to do
as much of the work as possible. I am 6ft tall and 17 stone, btw.

My usual rescue technique is to park their boat alongside mine, bow to
stern, they come oaround to the outside of their boat, and then climb up
over their boat to end up lying across the two boats before sliding legs
into their boat and getting themselves seated. They can use the cockpit
rims as hand holds, kicking with their legs helps, and as a last resort i
can reach over them, grab the back of their BA and pull them up. Usually
all I have to do is lie across their boat to steady them. If they can get
hold of my cockpit then rotating the boat will pull them up too.

This is easily converted to the strop rescue, by laying the strop over the
boats and securing it with the victims paddle, or by feeding it back through
itself.

I would always raft up the rest of the group. Might take a while, and even
be beyond some of them, but they will all be trying to stay together!! YOu
will drift with them to a greater or lesser extent, and even if you get a
bit away from them, it is better that they are all more or less together!

If you really can't get victim back into the boat, then you can use the raft
to help you as described by other posters.

Try and get some tips from your employer, it might just be that they don't
understand your concerns, and if asked will provide advice, but i'm not
convinced!

Get along to one of the coach updates, I did one on manual handling and
rescues, and found it very useful. Also if you have access t pool
sessions, you can spen an entertaining hour trying out all sort of weird and
wonderful rescue ideas in the comfort of the pool, and not at your wits end.

Good Luck

MW
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote in message
oups.com...
"I've had three 3 star paddlers involved in rescuing this big lad. he
has sunk two instructors and flooded his own boat in rescues, so if in
that situation you need to find a way that works for you - even if it
isn't textbook. "

Thats the sort of situation I am worried about - any ideas for
unorthodox methods?

For waht its worth the others don't raft up if there is a capsize
a) beyond their abilities
b) they would really catch the wind and be miles away by the time
rescue completed.

" The Strop Rescue"

I assume this means using a sling. I thought you put the sling over the
capsizees boat and hooked it over their paddle which you have rotated
so it is under both boats (I have never done this btw, just theory). So
how does it work putting it over both boats?

On 3 Feb 2005 05:47:01 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

"I've had three 3 star paddlers involved in rescuing this big lad. he
has sunk two instructors and flooded his own boat in rescues, so if in
that situation you need to find a way that works for you - even if it
isn't textbook. "

Thats the sort of situation I am worried about - any ideas for
unorthodox methods?

For waht its worth the others don't raft up if there is a capsize
a) beyond their abilities

No it's not. Even complete novices can get the message on rafting up.

When you get them on the water this is the procedure.

1/ you get on the water first.
You assist each other paddler getting onto the water. As they second
paddler gets on he gets told to join up with the first. That way right
at the outset you have your group under control so that you can
demonstrate and tell them what you expect them to do. They have, into
the bargain, discovered how tor aft up.

2/Before moving off you advise them that if there is any capsize, that
you will deal with it, and they should raft up. Alternately in near
the shore, get ashore. (But there are issues here too)

b) they would really catch the wind and be miles away by the time
rescue completed.

They would at least be together. Leave them scattered and they could
be spread across acres of water by the time you have struggled with
your rescue.

There are three issues here. One is your group control, another is
your rand the third is yopur emergency procedure.

If you can deal with the former, the remainder become less of an
issue. something you said in another post concerns me.

You question your ability...

I guess I am unsure as to whether I actually am Lvl 2 Kayak coach
standard - surely if I was I wouldn't be worrying like this.... :(

Are you or are you not? Did you do the training, did you do the hours,
did you do the assessment? If so, then you are, and it is the duty of
every coach to improve their skills, this is just part of improving
those skills.

One thing that I see a lot of is lack of Group Control. The rescue
staff at the local wter park see lots of it too. When you get people
out on the water the only way to stay safe is to retain group control.
You need to call them in to order, make sure they are buddied up at
least, but certainly don't let them wander off. If you have group
control they will do what you ask them in an emergency. if you don't,
then they could be anywhere because they don't know what to do if
things go pearshaped.

I just noticed the female bit. I'm afraid it doesn't wash. Emptying
the boat is a question of style rather than muscle. I've got 13 year
old lasses doing eskimo rescues amd putting me back in my boat. Sorry
if this sounds arrogant, but you need to look at your style and how
you tackle the job. Here's a suggestion that might be way, way off
beam. If so I apologise.

Did you do your training in a macho male environment? If you did you
may have seen muscular lads hauling boats across their decks without
thinking twice about how they did it. They would just teach you to do
the same instead of developing a technique that helps you do the job
without using every muscle in your body.

I've seen men teaching and there can be a macho thing about muscles
and power. I've seen women teach and usually they show more finesse,
more technique.

Ewan Scott

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

Never mind off-shore winds, any wind coming down a glen can create a
considerable swell. We paddled (my family) down from Strathyre onto
the head of Loch Lubnaig. As we entered the loch, what was, onshore, a
mild breeze became a considerable wind, and the swell created at the
head of the loch was siderable, within about 50 metres it was such
that our boats were disappearing from view in the troughs. We turned
west and beached. Our return trip was somewhat more rapid than our
outbopund trip!

Had we been with novices there would certainly have been capsizes.



I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

snip

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

To be fair there could be sheltered areas of a loch that would be
acceptable. Most L2 Coaches forget that they are only supposed to
travel not more than 750m from base. Kind of screws up any realistic
trips. Even on canals where the paddler will never be any more than a
couple of boat lengths from the bank!

snip

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

I had similar concerns.

Ewan Scott

Alan Adams wrote:

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to
know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in
writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager
ended
up in jail.

And following the Lyme Bay incident, the Adventure Activities Licensing
Authority (AALA) was set up. Your centre is, I believe, legally bound
to be licensed by them. On their website (http://www.aala.org) they
have plenty of guidelines and advice. This document in particular
http://www.aala.org/pdf/02_06_10_GPinES_Version_Two.pdf
has information relevant to your situation.
If you think your employer is operating dangerously outside the
guidelines then they are the right people to deal with it.

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions :)

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal. I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..

I can do eskimo rescues no prob - unfortunately that is not in option
for me. They are paddling boats with no decks so they just fall out.
Perceptive comment though - paddling wherever I have done it I am
usually the only girlie. The only method I have ever seen of emptying
boats is of bloke effortlessly dragging boat over their own and
emptying - sometimes they would even empty it held over their heads :(
This is the method I was taught and the method I thought was right. I
was vaguely aware that you may occasionally get the victim to assist -
it never really struck me as being an OK thing to do - I always saw it
as a failure and an inadequacy on the instructors part - boy have you
guys changed my mind!

There is a sheltered(ish) area to this Loch but we tend not use it as
it tends to be older kids we take to the loch and they get really bored
in this small bay - we like to paddle them up the Loch a bit so they
feel they are really kayaking - which makes it hard to stop and play
games because I really dont want them to fall in (three hour session)

Peter, I may not have painted my current employer in a particularly
nice light but generally they are fine. Im a lot more impressed with
their ethos and safety procedures than at my previous centre.

I remember Lyme bay, and I know its the reason AALA was set up. In
really serious conditions I would turn around and say no. The problem
is (and this is probably naive) I have a certain loyalty toward my
employer. As well as safety I feel I have to consider the fact that
disappointed clients is bad. Hell, jsut writing that I realised how
stupid its sounds. The problem is, everyone else does it without a
murmur whereas I would be so much more comfortable with a second coach.
I don't believe I am operating outside the BCU guidelines, however I
have this weird theory that off-site sessions should have minimum 2
instructors in case something major happens (which it can)., As Peter
said above - he got concussed by a kid waving a paddle (even wearing a
helmet) Its that sort of extreme situation which really worries me.

The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor. You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...

On 4 Feb 2005 04:00:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions :)

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation. Whilst you struggle to carry
out a rescue you'r eye is off the ball. By the time you have finished
I'll warrant your milling about is all over the shop.

If you raft them up, yes they will drift, but they will be together,
and you will drift at almost the same rate as them.

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal. I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..

I'd guess that your centre is at fault. If anything goes pear-shaped
you are in deep ****. You are on the water, you are in charge. If you
are unhappy about the situation you are putting your own life and that
of others at risk. That is not right. You have a duty of care. Taking
8 kids out on your own with no failsafe is really risky. I usually
work with my wife and we can take 16, but we usually only take 12. if
anything goes wrong one of us is able to go for help. if I were on my
own I'd be screwed.

Ask yourself this, if I lose someone (God forbid) what will the
coronor say when I tell him I was on my own with no back up? How will
the Procurator Fiscal view the situation? And how will the High Court
view your case when the parents/partner of the victim sue for damages
- an njury has happened, there has been a failing on the centre's
part, probably on yours, and there may well be a link between the two.
In which case you are completely stuck.

I know that's a worst case scenario, but if you are earning a living
from this, or even if you just enjoy it, that is what you have to have
at the back of your mind. I'm sure that you are an able paddler and
probably a capable teacher but that doesn't mean you should allow your
centre to force you to cut corners. (I'll not comment on the SPA
signing off)

I can do eskimo rescues no prob - unfortunately that is not in option
for me. They are paddling boats with no decks so they just fall out.
Perceptive comment though - paddling wherever I have done it I am
usually the only girlie. The only method I have ever seen of emptying
boats is of bloke effortlessly dragging boat over their own and
emptying - sometimes they would even empty it held over their heads :(

Macho pratts. If they were actually any good as coaches they would
teach the best practice. Showing off is about the worst practice in my
book.

This is the method I was taught and the method I thought was right. I
was vaguely aware that you may occasionally get the victim to assist -
it never really struck me as being an OK thing to do - I always saw it
as a failure and an inadequacy on the instructors part - boy have you
guys changed my mind!

Glad we have helped with that at least. For an assessment you can
instruct your victim in how to help. In real life situations getting
them back in the boat is a success, anything else is a failure, how
you do it doesn't matter. Your measure of success is how short a time
they spend in the water.

There is a sheltered(ish) area to this Loch but we tend not use it as
it tends to be older kids we take to the loch and they get really bored
in this small bay - we like to paddle them up the Loch a bit so they
feel they are really kayaking - which makes it hard to stop and play
games because I really dont want them to fall in (three hour session)

Right, if they get bored it suggests an attitude problem. here's how I
sort it out.

We get in, they raft up as we get in, (if they are beginners). Then we
tell them they are going to paddle to a given point. We buddy them up
and herd them to the area we intend using. One of us whips in the
stragglers. the other stays with the main group.

When we get there, if there is any crap about it being boring we make
them capsize. In fact, with beginners we make them capsize first, if
they can do it we stick a spray deck on and make them do it again.
Then they paddle with a deck on.

We play games such as Sharks and Minnows (Bulldog on the water), they
love it. Lots of contact, lots of splashing and they get a real grasp
of the feel of the boat. (Mind you, you do need a second able paddler
as a safety boat.


Peter, I may not have painted my current employer in a particularly
nice light but generally they are fine. Im a lot more impressed with
their ethos and safety procedures than at my previous centre.

snip

The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor.

Believe me they will wish they had justified another instructor if
something goes wrong.

You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...

You need to work with other coaches. You need to work with different
abilities.

Listen; I've got kids we coach that we have known for years. We think
that they uinderstand us and get on with us. If i bring in another
instructor they ALWAYS learn something new from them that they haven't
from me. The thing is I learn too - sometimes it is how not to deal
with a situation too.

Ewan Scott

"If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation"

What safety boats .... its just me :)

In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions :)

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

If you're operating in this sort of wind, you need to ensure it is onshore.
Anything else, as you've found, leads to problems. A raft will drift a LOT
faster than a rescue, because for most of the time a rescue is tethered in
place by the drag of the swimmer. A raft has a lot less resistance. Sending
them to shore is possibly a better option - not doing that was highlighted
as part of the cause of the Lyme Bay incident - they rafted instead, and
drifted out to sea.

Incidentally, in windy condiions you do start your trips upwind, don't you?
The river section I've done a lot of tasters on, forces the start to be
downstream and usually downwind. 10 minutes paddling out, 40 minutes
paddling back sometimes.

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal.

That's close to being unapproved - you should never be assessed and trained
by the same people, and it is better for your breadth of knowledge to do
training and assessment with different organisations. You should be learning
during both events.

I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..


snip


The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor.

With a three hour session (now that's long) you should have time for a
double journey. If you're further from base than that, then you're really in
trouble, on your own without transport.

You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...


That sounds like a good idea. (I haven't done one yet, so I'm not sure what
it contains). I would also suggest level 3 coach training. Taking training
before you expect to be ready for assessment can be very good, as you come
out with an action plan which helps you fix up your weaker areas, and gives
you lots to think about. BUT don't do it internally - you need to see other
viewpoints, and get to talk things through with other coaches and
candidates. As you've seen from this group, other views can help. Without
that you get in a rut of thinking what you've "always done" must be OK.

Hmm... Three hour session... Too long for just "taster" activities, and yes
they will get bored if you stick to that. Long enough for those more able to
really develop away from the others. You really need to be teaching, rather
than introducing, to keep their interest. Getting the better paddlers to
help is going to be a good strategy, as it keeps them occupied and
interested, and will also help the others. Just avoid allowing them to show
off too much as it can be off-putting to those who find it difficult.


--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

On 4 Feb 2005 10:05:00 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

"If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation"

What safety boats .... its just me :)


Read what I said. Find a way of trying it out, find someone to be your
safety boat. Ask around the local clubs, arrange for a coupl of
experienced paddlers to help you out as a favour - they can just
happen to be there.

Ewan Scott

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
I have this weird theory that off-site sessions should have minimum 2
instructors in case something major happens (which it can)., As
Peter said above - he got concussed by a kid waving a paddle (even
wearing a helmet) Its that sort of extreme situation which really
worries me.

I would agree with you. I would only be prepared to work in these
situations if I knew I could rely on the members of the group I was
instructing, or if the area being used for paddling was totally safe
(for example, if someone capsized they could stand up) and other help
was reasonably close at hand.

If you have to work in these situations, I would explain your concerns
to the kids before you start and then tell them what you would like then
to do.

In terms of rescues, have you considered asking the swimmer to use a
T-rescue where the kayak is pushed sideways up the front of your kayak.

Bill

Just got the latest Canoe and Kayak UK through the door. Interesting
article on deep water rescues. Seems to be re-iterating all the stuff I
was taught - why don't they publish some of the other methods you guys
have been teaching me? It seems that skills taught seem to be very
ingrained and people don't like to teach new (better?) ways of doing
things.

My favourite part in the article and I quote, " Sometimes people are
not physically strong enough to get back into their boat. If this does
happen you need to deal with the scenario".

Why thanks , that was really helpful - how exactly should I deal with
that scenario - growl...

Me again.
It is rare the day I CAN'T go for a paddle.
It is not so rare that the day that I and often other paddlers with
lots of skill ( 6 people with good rolls all in wet or dry suits, good
rescue skills all around. ) Say no, lets not go here and head off to
some other spot.
At 47 I have the confidence to do that.
I have also called adventure races for 3 or 4 foot waves. I was comfy
but the athletes would not be.
Chipscheeseandmayo you are likely a fine instructor. Your questions and
doubts about yourself likely put you in better stead than you think.
I have been cought out with friends in bad conditions, it is not
pleasant to see friends scared when it is no real problem for you but
it truly is for them.
Your consideration is fine.
My recommendations for rescue and emptying a boat stand: but your
judgement is what will keep you and your friends safe.
I have been in ( assisting instruction ) one CRCA sea kayaking course
where we had 10 candidates and 4 instructors. Things went to crap and
we had multiple swimmers , winds hit 70 - 80 KM waves were at 4 feet,
water temp was about 7 C.
Everyone on the course thought we "The instructors" were great.
I thought WE sucked eggs.
It did get much worse as we were on a crossing but before we left on a
2 KM crossing I had a bad feeling. ( One of those gut things you get
for getting old. ) I never voiced it!!!!

Another incident on another course saw waves a little higher than
recommended and we had a candidate walk out.
Again we should have taken more time to consider the most conservative
voice scenario.
Bad stuff happens. On both those trips / courses I would have traded
that exciting trip for a mundane " No lets put this off, or go to a
more sheltered spot !" type of day.
We got lucky because the instructor client ratio was rediculously good
in one course and the skill level of a couple of candidates accompanied
by a very high instructor student ratio existed on the second. The
second trip we had five instructors for 17 clients and a couple of the
students were already very good paddlers.
Chipscheeseandmayo you are fine . Oh, In Canada we would call you
Poutine.
Take care. I am sitting at my desk because we are getting 20 CM of snow
with 80 KM winds and freezing rain. Not a good day to paddle.
Alex