"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 16-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

Beause you've failed to make your case against the other sites
I
have read.

How about - the sites you identified are irrelevant to the
discussion.
Just because they talk about waterline length means nothing in
the
context of comparing waterline length and overall length.

No, you did not answer the question I asked. You snipped it
out,
and ignored it. Why is that?

Probably because your line of questions is not contributing to
the
discussion. You just want to nit-pik on trivia.
====================
No I did not. I asked you to explain YOUR statement about the
"many factors" that affect speed other than length. You are the
one nit-picking on definitions.



The _fact_ is that overall length is not a reasonable indicator
of kayak performance. Waterline length may be, other factors
being equal. If you can't deal with that, there's nothing I
can
do about it.
=================
Obviously you can't. thanks anyway. I'll wait for somebody else
to explain all those other factors someday. Obviously you can't.



Mike

I'm not sure what you mean by "Can the padding be removed from the seat?

I use a rudder if its windy,10 mph or more, otherwise no, don't need it.
I think you could get along in the Zoar with a skeg just as well.

"donquijote1954" wrote in message
oups.com...


Bub wrote:
Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well
made
and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999 w/rudder, its
not
bad.
Bub


Thanks!

Two questions: Can the padding be removed from the seat? and, Do you
get to use the rudder/keg or is it a nuisance?

I'll quote something...

'The Zoar Sport is a brilliant little boat. At 14' it is a touring boat
rather than a true sea kayak but I have found with mine that: 1) it
handles very well on fla****er, keeping close to the longer, "faster"
boats; 2) it handles extremely well in surf (force five conditions); 3)
it is solid and durable; and above all 4) it is a comfortable fit (I am
6'4" 240 lbs). Great boat.'

On 17-Jun-2005, Peter wrote:

You already provided it yourself. After first making the claim that
there was "no correlation" between LOA and LWL, you later provided data
indicating that the correlation was 0.79 which clearly showed your
initial statement to be false. QED

I've already addressed that - the correlation is not sufficient to
allow for prediction of performance. You are ignoring that _fact_.

As a further indicator of the relevance of LOA as an indicator of
performance, let's look at the correlation between the lengths
and the drag for the kayaks already presented.

Correlation coefficient, LOA vs Drag: -0.35
Correlation coefficient, LWL vs Drag: -0.69

Clearly, an intelligent person would not use LOA as an indicator
of performance. This further shows that the correlation between
LOA and LWL is insufficiently high. It also shows that other
factors beyond just length dictate drag, otherwise the coefficient
for LWL vs drag would be higher.

For cranky ol' rick, I'll get to other factors later.

Mike

Bub wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "Can the padding be removed from the seat?

I use a rudder if its windy,10 mph or more, otherwise no, don't need it.
I think you could get along in the Zoar with a skeg just as well.


Thanks. I thought the rudder/skeg may be unnecessary in a kayak of that
lenght.

I don't like any padding on the seat because of my peeing. Current
Designs, for example, doesn't have any.

Well, settled, I've tried the Manitou and it's too small for me. Later
I tried a Tarpon 160 and found it very nice. It'll be my next boat.
THANKS ALL!!!

Best Wishes

Frederick Burroughs wrote:
You could have a sharkskin textured slipover designed for your kayak,
similar to the swim wear worn by some athletes. In designer colors
and patterns, it is worn by your kayak to increase speed and get
envious stares.





--
"This president has destroyed the country, the economy,
the relationship with the rest of the world.
He's a monster in the White House. He should resign."

- Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003.

I wouldn't do that. I mean if you are in favor of a democratic world
for sardines...

"The Forum for Losers.....for those who have no life."

I think we kayakers got more in common with sardines. Think about it:
WE ALWAYS ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE FOOD CHAIN. Yet you see too many
sharks around here. They must be trying to stop the little fish from
organizing.

Well, next time you see one of those fake kayakers out there with the
big teeth sticking out, say, "Hey PREDATOR, you are too big for a
kayak!"

...stuff deleted

Lookee, Lookee what I found on the web site that someone posted
with Sea Kayaker magazine data:

Prijon Calabria Current Design Andromeda
LOA 4.42m (14.5ft) 5.26m (17.25ft)
LWL 3.96m (13 ft) 4.19m (13.75ft)
Drag 16.7 lb 18.0 lb

So here we have two _real_ sea kayaks, one that is more than 17 foot
long and another that is over 14 feet long (one 19% longer) yet
their waterline lengths are 13 and 13.75 feet respectively (one
only 6% longer).

Note in particular that the _shorter_ kayak has less resistance
at 4.5 knots.

Mike,

This is a pretty good comparison. I assume that the two boats were
unladen. Geared up for a long tour, however, the shorter boat should
ride deeper in the water (the LWL of the Andromeda should increase
significantly as the hull rides deeper), while the Calabria already has
most of its hull in the water. One would expect the drag to increase (as
well as the beam of the boat) as weight is added. I think this is where
we'd begin to see a performance hit on the shorter boat.

That is a heck of a lot of hull out of the water on the Andromeda,
however. Must be a real joy in wind (though probably pretty fun in surf
and waves).

Rick

donquijote1954 wrote:


Frederick Burroughs wrote:

You could have a sharkskin textured slipover designed for your kayak,
similar to the swim wear worn by some athletes. In designer colors
and patterns, it is worn by your kayak to increase speed and get
envious stares.

I wouldn't do that. I mean if you are in favor of a democratic world
for sardines...

"The Forum for Losers.....for those who have no life."

I think we kayakers got more in common with sardines. Think about it:
WE ALWAYS ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE FOOD CHAIN. Yet you see too many
sharks around here. They must be trying to stop the little fish from
organizing.

Well, next time you see one of those fake kayakers out there with the
big teeth sticking out, say, "Hey PREDATOR, you are too big for a
kayak!"


The slipover is sharkskin "textured" which results in improved laminar
flow, and theoretically less drag. It is essentially hosiery to be
worn by the kayak. The fabric can display any design and color you
choose, great white, barracuda, guppy, gleeful pink or camouflage...
You can even choose a pattern of foam and broken styrofoam, to blend
in perfectly with many of today's rivers and beaches.





--
"This president has destroyed the country, the economy,
the relationship with the rest of the world.
He's a monster in the White House. He should resign."

- Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003.

On 20-Jun-2005, Rick wrote:

Geared up for a long tour, however, the shorter boat should
ride deeper in the water (the LWL of the Andromeda should increase
significantly as the hull rides deeper), while the Calabria already has
most of its hull in the water.

Adding 50lb to each kayak only makes the difference in waterline lengths
change from 5.8% to 6.2% - not very much.

One would expect the drag to increase (as
well as the beam of the boat) as weight is added.

The Andromeda actual increases its wetted surface more.

That is a heck of a lot of hull out of the water on the Andromeda,
however. Must be a real joy in wind (though probably pretty fun in surf
and waves).

I have only paddled the Andromeda for an hour or so in moderate
conditions. It sucks. I can't say anything good about that
kayak... well, the colour was nice.

It's a Derek Hutchinson design. Folks familiar with my opinions on
his boat design "skills" will know that I'd expect the results the
kayak yeilded. When I talked to Mike Henderson of Current Designs
the year before the kayak was sold, he said the kayak in development
would be "long and fast" compared to the GulfStream. It is long
and slow - much slower than the Gulfstream. How slow? - there are
a whole whack of plastic and folding kayaks that are faster.

Mike

Never understood the "TRACKING"" thingy. If the paddler indeed knows how to
"paddle" any boat tracks well. White Water boats are made to spin on a dime,
but track as good as anything else if proper paddling strokes are used.
"donquijote1954" wrote in message
oups.com...
That's what I read too. The question is how a recreational boat would
be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read a bottom that
makes for more initial stability also produces less speed. For example
the Biscayne at 14'6" was rated a mere 3 out of 5 in speed when it was
a Dagger Savannah...


http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?Bo...DC&BoatI D=13
5

Yet it's rated as fast by several reviewers...

"Just bought a Savannah Expedition model. Love it -- fast, stable,
tracks beautifully. Great fit for me. Paddle some rivers, some lakes,
some of Great Lakes. When I demo'd 5 other boats the Savannah was the
hands-down winner."

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/show....html?prod=483