I have another simplistic thought on this subject. How about towing the boat
with a load equivalent to the weight of a the paddler measuring the towing
force versus speed. Then all you have to do is measure the speed to know
what force is being applied.

Allan Bennett wrote:
In article nK2Ud.65307$8a6.4571@trndny09, Kieran
wrote:
Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been
done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing
crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and
potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So,
I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done
on
kayaking or canoeing.

The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle
has
no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely
some
sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a
search
of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found
any
published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work
hasn't
been done at some National training center, or product development
center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that
Medline
doesn't cover.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or hints on who might have done this
sort of
work in the past. I'd rather not re-invent the wheel, if I can
maybe
work on just improving it! :-)


There has been some tensiometric analysis carried out with strain
gauges on
the shaft (see The Canadian Canoe Association Coaching Manual; The
Science of
Canoeing, Richard Cox, ISBN 0 95118931 14). The work has
been repeated from time to time (I've just dismantled my own kit,
sorry).
All the results are similar, but the usefulness is negligible, IMO.

However, I suggest you set up a paddling ergometer which can give you
the
data you require w/o the vagaries of water and weather conditions.


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of square wheels



--

On 3/2, I posted describing the paddle as a large torque wrench. I have
a background in mechanics and have used torgure wrenches. Is this what
you are mentioning for strain gauges?

You say the usefulness of of the measurements are negligible, can you
expound? TnT

If you want motive power or P = {F}*{V} then you would wish to measure
either the reaction forces of the Kayaker against the boat and/or the
tractive force of the boat (use a line with constant tension and measure the
velocity.)

If you want the forces on the paddle to generate force vs position and/or
time it will get much more complicated but not impossible. Try using strain
gages on the paddle shaft with the data synchronized with video. You can
(with much labor) get position, force and velocity.

There is software already in use that can provide many of the tools you
need. You may need to spend $$ for it though and the learning curve is
probably steep.

"Kieran" wrote in message
news:nK2Ud.65307$8a6.4571@trndny09...
Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.

The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle has
no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely some
sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a search
of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found any
published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work hasn't
been done at some National training center, or product development
center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that Medline
doesn't cover.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or hints on who might have done this sort of
work in the past. I'd rather not re-invent the wheel, if I can maybe
work on just improving it! :-)

Thanks,
Kieran Coghlan

Tinkerntom wrote:

Force on the paddle shaft, at the handgrip.


Makes me think of a big torque wrench. Do you get any deflection of the
paddle shaft while paddling? Use a smaller shaft until you do, Take
video, or measure the deflection of the needle! Then in the lab,
measure the force needed to duplicate the deflection. You should then
have an idea of what the possible force exerted on the shaft would be
for a particular paddler.

The potential force would be based on as wolfgang points out the
effectiveness of the engine mount, the paddlers seat and feet, the
grip, and other loss of efficiency factors that could be isolated for
significance. TnT


The problem is not how to measure the moment (torque) on the shaft.
Strain guages have been around for ages that will allow me to do that,
and I'm well familiar with how to implement them. The problem is
determining power from that force.

The force balance in the kayak system is weird, as there is no fixed
pivot point on the paddle. So, the pivot point is a "virtual" one.

I'm making progress, but still wonder if anyone has done this already.

The only way I can see to determine power at the hand grip is to record
3D kinematic video of the motion, so that the actual 3D vector of the
handgrip velocity is known. Then Power=FxV. But I wonder if there's a
better/simpler way to do it.

I did find a paper (Aitken, 1992) that measured paddle shaft torque
(bending) with strain guages, then used the hull velocity through the
water to get power. I don't see how this is valid, though, since hand
velocity is not equal to hull velocity. But then I suppose it would
depend on what your frame of reference was... Hmmmm....

Any other bright ideas out there? :-)

-Kieran

Allan Bennett wrote:
In article , riverman
wrote:

snip

And good luck!! IIWY, I'd identify 3 or 4 variables and call it a day. Just
think of all the minor adjustments a paddler makes within a single
stroke...and you want to quantify THAT?


Nope. I don't want to quantify anything - Kieran does. But, he wants to
measure force on the shaft *during* a paddle stroke, which will be different
to the forces during a tethered stroke or when braced against a wall or on an
erg or whatever. Just try it.

Ultimately, all the variables you mention - plus a load more - will finish up
as force on the immersed blade, which can be recorded using simple (these
days) tensiomentric devices.

Yes, precisely. That's my thought anyway. Power = F.V (dot product of
the Force vector on the paddle with the Velocity vector of the hand.)

All the componenets that riverman mentioned *should* come out "in the
wash" so to speak, if I figure this correctly.

-Kieran

Allan Bennett wrote:
In article j1tUd.66306$8a6.13749@trndny09, Kieran
wrote:

That's the general idea, but because the paddling motion is 3-d, it's
not very easy to determine power just from the strain in the paddle
shaft.


The flex in a paddle-shaft will be a reflection of all the forces acting upon
the blade in the water. Using the force profile: t v deflection) and
suitable calibration, it will be possible to determine the power.

Hmmm... this seems to be the part I'm missing. How do you get power
without knowing the path of the force?

You need to know instantaneous velocity (direction and magnitude) at every
moment. In a fixed-pivot environment like rowing, you can just put a
potentiometer on the oar-lock. But the kayak/canoe paddle has no fixed
pivot point. So, I imagine that a virtual pivot point would have to be
derived via 3-d kinematic video analysis.


It seems there is a virtual point (see Plagenhoef, 1979 and others), just as
there is a virtual point where all the forces that propel the boat seem to
meet - a valuable tool for those athletes with adequate imagination.

Thanks for the reference. I'll see if I can find that publication.
Would that be a book or a journal article?

I haven't yet sat down and done a free-body of the system, but in my
head, it seems like it's going to be an indeterminant system... not fun.


..and the ultimate purpose?

Trying to come up with a master's thesis for my degree in biomechanics.
A research prof here has an ongoing project that considers at a high
(systems) level the energetics of different forms of human locomotion
through/in/on water, including surface swimming with/without fins,
submerged (e.g. scuba) swimming, rowing, and kayaking. There's very
little published research that we can find on kayaking, so that's the
part I'm tackling.

Thanks for your input!
-Kieran

Allan Bennett wrote:
In article .com, Tinkerntom
wrote:

Why not measure the HR of the engine? I've read that the well trained
athelete can output something in the neighborhood of 1/4 HP. All the
variables of measuring the work accomplished would not change the power
rating of the motor, if it is power you are after! TnT


HR is a measure of sympathetic stimulation and oxygen demand by the working
muscles. It will not give an accurate assessment of power, esp when
anaerobic fibres become significantly invloved... Those who have used a HRM
will also have noticed that HR can remain high even when the workload is
reduced to plodding pace or slower, plus weekly or daily variations.

Allan Bennett
Not a fan of horse-sense


The P.I. I'm working with is actually a systems physiologist, and
currently uses metabolic estimates of power and economy (HR + O2
consumption) for kayaking. We want a more direct measurement.

-Kieran

Allan Bennett wrote:

There has been some tensiometric analysis carried out with strain gauges on
the shaft (see The Canadian Canoe Association Coaching Manual; The Science of
Canoeing, Richard Cox, ISBN 0 95118931 14). The work has
been repeated from time to time (I've just dismantled my own kit, sorry).
All the results are similar, but the usefulness is negligible, IMO.

However, I suggest you set up a paddling ergometer which can give you the
data you require w/o the vagaries of water and weather conditions.

Our lab actually has a very large annular pool where this experiment
would take place, so it would be a fairly controlled environment. I'll
check out the Coaching Manual you referenced above, thanks.

Allan Bennett
Not a fan of square wheels

Yeah, neither am I!

-Kieran

Tinkerntom wrote:
Allan Bennett wrote:

All the results are similar, but the usefulness is negligible, IMO.

However, I suggest you set up a paddling ergometer which can give you

the

data you require w/o the vagaries of water and weather conditions.


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of square wheels

--

On 3/2, I posted describing the paddle as a large torque wrench. I have
a background in mechanics and have used torgure wrenches. Is this what
you are mentioning for strain gauges?

Yes, your idea of using a torque wrench is essentially the same thing
that a strain guage would give. Except the strain guage would be much
more precise, and more accurate.


You say the usefulness of of the measurements are negligible, can you
expound? TnT

I too wonder what Allan meant by this comment.

-Kieran

Anthony Garcia wrote:
If you want motive power or P = {F}*{V} then you would wish to measure
either the reaction forces of the Kayaker against the boat and/or the
tractive force of the boat (use a line with constant tension and measure the
velocity.)

If you want the forces on the paddle to generate force vs position and/or
time it will get much more complicated but not impossible. Try using strain
gages on the paddle shaft with the data synchronized with video. You can
(with much labor) get position, force and velocity.

Yes, this is exactly what I assumed needs to be done. We have the
hardware and software to do 3D kinematic video analysis, but I was
wondering if there was ever a simpler method devised.


There is software already in use that can provide many of the tools you
need. You may need to spend $$ for it though and the learning curve is
probably steep.

Which software is this? I'd appreciate a link or reference. There is
money to be spent on this... not infinite amounts, but some....

thanks,
Kieran