... you all are going to have to excuse me but I am 55 years old and for as
long as I can remember I have been told by numerous pundits that
civilization especially western civilization is about to go bust and
self-destruct. First it was by all-out nuclear war - I also can remember
being told we would run out of crude oil by 2000 - then it was the coming
ice age - and now we all are going to roast in our own juices with global
warming and the runaway greenhouse effect. Sorry if I sound jaded & cynical
but a ton of money has been and will be made predicting the end of the
world.

Personally I think if we snuff ourselves it will come from the small
microbial end of things. Probably with good & benign intentions somebody
will alter the genes of some lifeform and do irrepairable harm to most
probably the food chain and then we all can kiss our modern civilization
goodbye. Just my 2 cents worth.

The fact that we were saved by a hair (remember the Cuban Missile
Crisis) doesn't mean that the wolf wasn't there. But now we have more
wolves, predictable and unpredictable. The issue at hand is the
predictable one. It's not a matter of "if" but of "when." We are
unwilling and uncapable to change and the problem is passed on to
future generations. The other issue is the unpredictable one. As more
people and governments--not always with the best intentions--lay their
hands on WMDs and more conflicts are provoked, something will happen
sooner or later...

There's a dialog in 'The Matrix' in which one of the humanoids says we
human beings are the only living beings, outside of a virus, to
destroy its own home. Maybe we will meet our own medicine.

Well, for those who can't read ice melting as a sign of Earth warming,
here's another sign of environmental catastrophe: satellite pictures
of the Amazon. If that is not clear enough...

Satellites show human destruction of Amazon rainforest
By Andrew Hay in Brasilia
November 27, 2004

Getting patchy
About half of Brazil's original Amazon rainforest has been occupied by
man, deforested or used for industry, and its destruction is worse
than government figures show, an environmental group says.

A study using satellite photographs shows that land occupation and
deforestation covers about 47 per cent of the world's largest jungle,
an area bigger than the continental United States, the Brazilian
non-government organisation Imazon said.

The respected group has received funding from a number of sources
including the Ford Foundation and the German and US governments.

While the Government says only 16 per cent of Brazil's Amazon has been
deforested, the Imazon study indicates a much larger area is
threatened or being destroyed by man, said one of the researchers,
Carlos Souza.

"This shows the real pressure on the forest," said Mr Souza, who used
satellite images up to 2002 to produce the study.

Deforestation of the Amazon by ranchers, farmers and loggers hit its
second-highest level last year.

The Government says it is using satellite monitoring, reserves and
better law enforcement to slow destruction of an area that is home to
10 per cent of the world's fresh water and 30 per cent of plant and
animal species.

The centre-left Government is particularly concerned about an "arc of
deforestation" that marks an agricultural and settlement frontier
sweeping from east to west across the lower, southern half of the
Amazon.

Imazon said its survey showed that reserves must be created deep
within the forest, and on the frontier of Brazil's portion of the
Amazon - about two-thirds of the rainforest.

"Vast areas of forest that were previously considered empty
(especially in the north and west areas) show signs of growing human
pressure, especially from forest fires," the Imazon study said.

Environment Ministry officials were not immediately available to
comment on the survey.

About 70 per cent of Brazil's tropical savannah - once the size of the
Amazon - has been deforested to create the world's biggest
grain-growing area, environmental groups say.

The Amazon will go the same way if agriculture, business and
government use it as a resource to fuel economic growth, the
Environment Minister, Marina Silva, said last week as she opened an
environmental police academy.

Reuters

"we live under the foot of the dinosaur"

Originally posted by Cowboy
Where I live - it's a free-market economy; folks don't like being told
what they can or can't buy as if it were a command economy. Go bych to
the auto manufacturers to improve efficiency, cause I sure as hell
won't argue with you in that I'd love to get 40+ mpg instead of the 12
or so I see with my truck. See; you're directing your anti-SUV rant at
the wrong crowd. Consumers will buy what they need or want, but
manufacturers can do better with pressure in the right places.

#1: I drive a truck that has the same engine as a Ford Expedition, so
what's the freakin' difference? Are you going to tell me and all the
other millions of truck owners that we should go out and buy hybrids??
Try hauling a load full of grain in a shyt can Honda. The FORD F-150
is the world's best selling consumer vehicle; trucks get the work done
in my town.

#2: If you live in a city or don't have kids; shyt, a Mini Cooper or
Camry might do you good. That stuff won't work for me where I live and
what I deal with.

Like Montgomery Gentry say: I ain't trading in my family's safety just
to save on a little gas ................ YOU DO YOUR THING, I'll DO
MINE!!!! [fuqing bad-azz song and it's how millions roll].

Like I said - you go voice it to the auto manufacturers and tell them
I want the same truck, but with 40 mpg. You think I like paying $300
per month in gas??? Hell no, but I ain't about to drive no fuqing Jap
car and a Ford Focus or Chevy Cobalt just don't cut it for me.

Cowboy, I don't have a rationing in mind, but the current level of
happy-go-around waste is UNSUSTAINABLE.

But you know what is f*** wrong with the world (aka the jungle)? Not
that you personally drive a truck, particularly if you need it, but
that WASTING GAS IS GLAMORIZED. If you drive an SUV in the city
(hardly a need for it) it signals "hey, I'm the king of the world, and
f*** the world." Another thing is wrong with the world (or should I
say America?) is that YOU DON'T HAVE CHOICES, but to pollute. I got 3
spanking new bicycles in my apartment that go nowhere. Why? Because
it's a jungle out there. And being small gets you in trouble. Not even
in a small car you are safe, let alone in a bicycle, on the chaotic
American roads, where SIZE MATTERS. We need BIKE LANES but that's too
much to ask in the land of super roads.

So sure we can put pressure on Ford Corportation to produce hybrids
and complain all you want, and they should be doing much more by now,
but in the meantime, I'm saying WE LIVE UNDER THE FOOT OF THE
DINOSAUR. And the STUPID HUNGRY DINOSAUR, instead of coming up with
something creative, demands to be fed at whatever cost.:confused:

(hey, you can sign something here);)

Climate Change Petition Online
Sign the online Emissions Petition. Urge America's political leaders
to take...
iw.rtm.com

If the beast were smart, it could notice things like this...;)


Wind industry bids to win over doubters
Friday, November 26, 2004 Posted: 9:30 AM EST (1430 GMT)

LONDON, England (Reuters) -- The European wind energy industry,
thriving as climate change tops the global agenda, says it could
eventually supply all the continent's electricity, but must first
overcome public resistance over eyesore turbines.

The European Wind Energy Association (EWEA), which held its annual
meeting in London this week, projected that offshore "wind farms"
covering an area the size of Greece could meet Europe's electricity
needs with no greenhouse gas emissions.

But sceptics cite pollution of another kind with giant wind turbines
scarring the landscape, or blighting the sea horizon, deterring
tourists and killing birds with their whirling vanes.

"The argument is reaching ridiculous proportions. Most people don't
understand climate change and they don't understand wind turbines,"
Alison Hill of the British Wind Energy Association (BWEA) told an
international meeting in London.

She said her organization was mounting a major publicity campaign in
newspapers, with billboard posters and a photographic exhibition
extolling what she called the beauty of turbines to inform and win
over people.

"It is a long standing case of Not In My Back Yard. Where people have
knowledge they give support. In this case familiarity breeds content,"
she said.

With the Kyoto treaty on cutting carbon dioxide emissions about to
come into force, signatory governments must seek clean and renewable
sources of energy.

Wind farms are sprouting in fields, on hilltops and out of the seas
around Europe with major projects either under construction or in
planning.

The EWEA says it can hit the target of generating 75 gigawatts (GW) of
electricity -- or 5.5 percent of demand -- by 2010, of which 10 GW
could be offshore.

With initiative and government intervention to remove long term
support for the carbon dioxide emitting fossil fuel power industry,
this could rise to 12 percent by 2020.

"In the longer term, a sea area of 150,000 square kilometers ... could
provide enough power to satisfy all of Europe's electricity demand,"
an EWEA statement said. He gave no timeframe.

But Rowena Langston of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds
-- which says global warming must be stopped -- said development was
being pushed ahead with scant reference to the impact on the local
environment and in particular bird life.

"Until there is more robust information, we are not going to overstep
our conservation brief and say a project should go ahead regardless,"
she told the meeting.

But renewabale energy specialist Bryony Worthington of pressure group
Friends of the Earth countered that the climate crisis was now so
grave that birds had to take second place to saving the planet.

"The bottom line is that climate change is happening, endangering us
all. It is extremely scary," she told Reuters.

Originally posted by goth1856
....about the virus anology...ever notice a satell pix of modern
civilization on the face of the earth is just like a colony of virus
on the host? it begged the question are we the virus plague apon the
planet?

Yep. But there's consolation...

What would you like to come back as? King over the British?
After Blair they will believe anything you tell them.

Keep that review of Bush- pushing further and further to greater
failure (madness).

Howdy Bader
That's the fate of the lions: to drag everybody else and themselves
into doom. If there's any consolation is that they'll meet their
justice. They'll be swallowed by the jungle...

Film 'Aguir The Wrath of God'

"The centerpiece of the story is the figure of Aguirre, played with
crazed demonism by Klaus Kinski. He's terrifying in the part -- his
lips contort underneath cold blue eyes that convey a ruthlessness that
slips, not so slowly, into insanity. By placing him and his arrogant
delusions about himself and the environment he finds himself in,
Herzog seems to be criticizing the entirety of Western culture, from
imperialism to Nazism to the American occupation of Vietnam. Aguirre
and those who follow him are ultimately destroyed by their own
delusions of grandeur; in the end, the world they're confronting is
simply too large and complex to be encompassed by their petty plans
and ambitions."

http://reviews.imdb.com/Reviews/120/12030

On 2004-11-27, DonQuijote1954 wrote:
Originally posted by goth1856
...about the virus anology...ever notice a satell pix of modern
civilization on the face of the earth is just like a colony of virus
on the host? it begged the question are we the virus plague apon the
planet?

Luckily we do have a cure for this plague:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/sarastus/penaintr.htm

In Finland we have only 3% of foreign descent, compared to Sweden's
40%, and thus this guy's 50 years of premonitory sermons did have a
covert effect, inspite of being officially comdemned.

Timo Noko wrote in message ...
On 2004-11-27, DonQuijote1954 wrote:
Originally posted by goth1856
...about the virus anology...ever notice a satell pix of modern
civilization on the face of the earth is just like a colony of virus
on the host? it begged the question are we the virus plague apon the
planet?

Luckily we do have a cure for this plague:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/sarastus/penaintr.htm

In Finland we have only 3% of foreign descent, compared to Sweden's
40%, and thus this guy's 50 years of premonitory sermons did have a
covert effect, inspite of being officially comdemned.

Though I'm an immigrant myself, my position on the issue is, we need
to fix our own problems, and then we leave your land. Ironically we
may find that immigrants and racists have something in common,
particularly with a country like Finland which is a country...

Emigration from Finland

Finland has traditionally been a country of emigration. Over one
million finnish people has moved from Finland since 1900, half of that
before World War II. Without any emigration there would be 6-7 million
inhabitants in Finland. The most important wave of emigration started
from the 1860's and went on to the 1930's, when emigrants headed
mainly for North America. The next wave of dimension was the
emigration to Sweden which started in the 1950's and diminished in the
1970's.

Finding relatives in America has become some kind of a hobby for many.
For people living in America, Europe is the major continent where
their ancestors left. Ancestors from Finland can be found, even if the
number of immigrants from Finland was only about 0.5 % of all
immigrants to America. Usually people from the large emigration areas
in Finland tried to settle together in the same areas in the United
States. Most of the emigrants were men.

***

You see, Finland used to be a very backward country, but now is #1. We
have quite a bit to learn from Scandinavia...

Originally posted by Bader
Howdy DonQ:

I have to admit Cowboy got it right. I could have said similar a long
time ago.
People subject to the Law of the Jungle are trying to survive not
trying to protect the Law.
The lion is not govt bureaucracy, thats just as subject to the Law as
Cowboy.
And if you went to the manufacturer they would tell you the same story
as it applies to them.
The universe is full of energy and its free. Thats why we cant have
it, because the Lion wants to sell it. IF the US spent its defence
budget on bike lanes it wouldnt change a thing.

Howdy Bader
It makes sense that the jungle condemns everybody, except that a GOOD
CHUNK OF THAT DEBT IS THE $30,000+ SUV. If there were bike lanes
people could get away with bicicles, which is precisely why the
government does't build them. He wants to be fed in a BIG WAY.

But if the bureaucracy is not the lion, then it's one of his
associates in sharing the scraps. That's why they resist ANY change,
except a raise in salary and benefits...

Originally posted by HAZ
here in N. Florida, we've only had one day in the forties and it's
almost December! Four or five hurricane recently....hello! ice
melting! should be a wake up call to someone! Our recently elected ?
President , thinks it's all junk science!

His home state is getting hammered with unusualy heavy amounts of
rain!

I know, Haz, but they are tied up in the men's thing, which is to make
war. Funny that they didn't raise the possibility of the hurricane
being tied to climate change, just plenty of photo ops for reelection.
I call him Hurricane Bush...

We narrowly escaped several times in South Florida.

This website on Bush's war on the environment is very good...

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.ph...onmental_record

On 2004-11-28, DonQuijote1954 wrote:
Timo Noko wrote in message ...
On 2004-11-27, DonQuijote1954 wrote:
Originally posted by goth1856
...about the virus anology...ever notice a satell pix of modern
civilization on the face of the earth is just like a colony of virus
on the host? it begged the question are we the virus plague apon the
planet?

Luckily we do have a cure for this plague:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/sarastus/penaintr.htm

In Finland we have only 3% of foreign descent, compared to Sweden's
40%, and thus this guy's 50 years of premonitory sermons did have a
covert effect, inspite of being officially comdemned.

Emigration from Finland

Finland has traditionally been a country of emigration. Over one
million finnish people has moved from Finland since 1900, half of that
before World War II. Without any emigration there would be 6-7 million
inhabitants in Finland. The most important wave of emigration started
from the 1860's and went on to the 1930's, when emigrants headed
mainly for North America. The next wave of dimension was the
emigration to Sweden which started in the 1950's and diminished in the
1970's.

Remember that Finland's birth rate has been articially boosted for a
century. Especially during the fascist era there was a huge (20%)
bachelor-tax -- make babies or move out of the country. From 1990
even the officially stated policy of government and busines (=Nokia)
leaders has been that 1/4 of the native finns are genetically of
subhuman quality, not worth jobs, healthcare, housing, higher
education, or even as a breeding stock. Hence we have started to
import better people en mass and soon we'll have nice multicultural
scene like all em other countries..

On 2004-11-28, DonQuijote1954 wrote:
Timo Noko wrote
On 2004-11-27, DonQuijote1954 wrote:
Originally posted by goth1856
...about the virus anology...ever notice a satell pix of modern
civilization on the face of the earth is just like a colony of virus
on the host? it begged the question are we the virus plague apon the
planet?

Luckily we do have a cure for this plague:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/sarastus/penaintr.htm

In Finland we have only 3% of foreign descent, compared to Sweden's
40%, and thus this guy's 50 years of premonitory sermons did have a
covert effect, inspite of being officially comdemned.

Finland has traditionally been a country of emigration. Over one
million finnish people has moved from Finland since 1900, half of that
before World War II. Without any emigration there would be 6-7 million
inhabitants in Finland. The most important wave of emigration started
from the 1860's and went on to the 1930's, when emigrants headed
mainly for North America. The next wave of dimension was the
emigration to Sweden which started in the 1950's and diminished in the
1970's.

Remember that Finland's birth rate has been articially boosted for a
century. Especially during the fascist era there was a huge (20%)
bachelor-tax -- make babies or move out of the country. From 1990
even the officially stated policy of government and busines (=Nokia)
leaders has been that 1/4 of the native finns are genetically of
subhuman quality, not worth jobs, healthcare, housing, higher
education, or even as a breeding stock. Hence we have started to
import better people en mass and soon we'll have nice multicultural
scene like all em other countries..