Dave,

There is a difference in the Shadow and Eclipse beyond the length difference.
The Shadow is smaller in other dimensions as well. For me (5'10", 180lbs) the
Eclipse handles much better, especially acceleration. Someone with a smaller
frame may find the Shadow much more responsive.

Two good ways to buy a boat: 1. Try lots of boats and see what you like best.
Ask others what they like about their boats. Ask what factors you should
consider. Then after all your research, buy the right boat. 2. Get something
inexpensive (used) and get on the water. Then do method one and either sell
your first boat or keep it for others to paddle with you. Personally I went
the second route and found I was able to learn more about paddling and boat
design while on the water talking to people and trying things than from reading
about it.

From the boats you mentioned, I like the Eclipse and the would suggest you try
the Wilderness Systems Tempest 17. Having said that, try lots, just include
those in your tests.

Brian Blankinship

Hi Dave,
Iv'e have bin kayaking for about 10 years. I think Paula is on
the right track. Try as many different boats as you can.A friend of mine is
going through the same thing. (to many specs confusion) So i'm taking him to
the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium in Sept. Symposiums like this offer a
great opportunity to try alot of boats side by side right on the beach. They
also have all kinds of classes. You can probably find one in your neck of
the woods. Try the calendar section of Sea Kayaker Mag.(www.
seakayakermag.com)

Happy paddling,Marv

Darryl Johnson wrote in news:_LaZa.5850
:

Dave wrote in :

Hi Folks,

Dave, the newby, here, (very limited experience) looking for some
advice on which way to turn for a boat. Seems that there are
lots to pick from. Too many in fact. Leaves one in confusion.

I'm looking for a touring/camping boat for fla****er to open
water that would fit a guy about 6' tall and about 180#. Kinda
narrow in the waist and long in the arms and legs.

I live in the Mobile/Pensacola area and know that local dealers
sell Perception and Wilderness Systems, and, I think, Necky.
There are a couple of dealers I haven't checked yet so feel sure
that other brands are available.

One of the things that puzzle me is when I look through, say, the
Perception catalogue (but the same applies to others), I see a
Shadow 16.5 - at 16' 8" x 22.25" - is listed as being for 'the
shorter paddler', yet the Eclipse 17.0 - at 17' x 22.25" -
contains no such comment. Now . . . there is no difference in the
width of these boats and only 2" in the length.

That's actually a 4" difference in length g, but
I agree that they sure *sound* like they'd be
similar boats. But -- and there is always a "but" --
if you were to look at a Mazda Miata and a BMW Z3,
you might take some of the dimensions and say to
yourself that they sure sound like similar cars.

I believe that the deck height and overall volume is greater in the Eclipse
than the Shadow. Generally, when kayak manufactures have high and low
volume versions of a similar design (even when they have different names)
they typically are the same length and only vary in width by an inch or so.
Most often the difference is in the deck height, overall volume, and
sometimes the cockpit size.


They are not similar, and it isn't just the price
that makes them different. Same with kayaks. In the
end, you really need some seat time in them to get
to know them and be able to really tell the difference.

Absolutely. The specifications are merely a starting point. Getting into
boats and actually paddling them is the only way to really determine which
boat is best for each individual.


So why is one for the smaller paddler and the other for anyone?
What is the difference?

As to why one manufacturer markets their boat as
suitable for shorter paddlers and another doesn't:
it's just marketing. Ignore it. If you can get in
and out, if you have enough room for your legs, if
it isn't too high or too low above the waterline
when you're in it, and it feels "good" to you, then
it is the boat for your size.

Keep in mind that a boat that feels a little roomy can also be padded out
for a tighter fit.

(For the nit-pickers in
the crowd, I know there is more to it than that, as
do most people who paddle kayaks. I'm just trying
to keep it simple. Perhaps I oversucceed?)


From reading other posts and talking to a few folks it seems that
'fit' is really important, but where do you start? What might be
some good first boats for me to look at? I'm assuming somewhere
in the 14' to 17' range to have enough space for camping gear, but
after that, I get lost. Material will almost certainly be plastic
($$).

I had the pleasure of spending a few hours with a saleman
who was having a quiet day at the store. He spent a couple
of hours going over the boats in his collection, listing
the pros and cons of all the features. We had a long
discussion about plastic vs composite: and there are a
number of pros and cons for each. Depending on what kind
of paddling you do, and the conditions in which you do it,
plastic may or may n ot be the best choice....

And ultimate stability is more important then initial stability.
I guess I'll get wet a few times - but eventually learn how keep
it upright.

One school of thought suggests that initial stability in
your first boat should be more important. The idea being
that if you keep falling out, or even just feel tippy,
you won't like the boat -- or kayaking -- as much as if
you get a more stable boat and learn with it.

The other school of thought is that for most people initial stability is
something one gets used to very quickly. I don't know how many first time
kayakers I've seen go out in boats they may have thought unstable and looked
pretty wobbly at first, come back a few hours later looking quite
comfortable. If one can go from a feeling of tippy to comfortable in a
matter of hours it seems rather silly to place initial stability at the top
of the list for criteria in purchasing a boat one might own for years
(granted that there are times when initial stability is a benefit; picture
taking, bird watching, etc). For the most part, pretty much any poly boat
on the market isn't so initial unstable that most won't feel comfortable in
it after a few days. There is also the idea that a boat with too much
initial stability will actually inhibit ones ability to develope ones
skills. A boat that is harder to tip over is harder to edge and edging is a
crucial skill for better boat control.

"Paula Johnson" wrote in
:

The boat I finally settled on was an Eddyline Nighthawk 16. I was not
looking for a boat over 14' because of weight considerations, but the
Nighthawk 16 fit so well, (better than a shorter but slightly wider
model, with the same cockpit size) and the weight of the boat was still
in my acceptable range, that I took the leap. Can't wait until it gets
here!

Congrats on the new boat. I've spent a day paddling a Nighthawk and it's a
fine boat. Taking the boat you're considering buying for a lesson is also a
great idea.


Anyway, what you think you want and what you end up getting might be
way different. You can never tell until you sit in a bunch.

Absolutely. I've heard lots of stories of people buying a boat that they
thought they wanted only to try to trade it in once they tried a few others.
In my case that was only a matter of three weeks. That also suggests then
when going to try a few kayaks get into a couple of boats that you think are
too long or too narrow. You'll never know (or will soon find out later)
what is too long or too narrow unless you try them. The worst thing that
can happen is that you might get wet.