aid to navigation question
 

I find such good info here that before I open up Chapmans, I thought I
would ask if someone wants to explain something to me. To give you a
little background, I have travelled in my boat from Boston, Maine,
cape cod, to NYC, ICW, hudson River, erie canal, many of the canals,
lake chaplian, St Lawence Seaway to Montreal, so I have some basic
understanding of bouys, etc.
My quick question is something like this: if I am crusing about 5-15
miles off shore and see a red bouy, even before I look at the chart,
what should I be thinking? Which side do I want to pass it on? Is
there a slogan like the "right on red when returning" that I should be
thinking? thanks for your time.
just so you know, I would check the chart first, before I proceeded.

aid to navigation question
 

Hey, I actually know the answer to this.

Red right returning is the saying (mnemonic?).

The trick then becomes to know which way you're going.

I see a lot of people with little plastic green and red reminders
suction-cupped to the top of their compass. When they come about they simply
give them a spin them the other way. Where we are there's markers everywhere
and this is an easy way to remind you whether you're going up or down.

"Richard Malcolm" wrote in message
om...
I find such good info here that before I open up Chapmans, I thought I
would ask if someone wants to explain something to me. To give you a
little background, I have travelled in my boat from Boston, Maine,
cape cod, to NYC, ICW, hudson River, erie canal, many of the canals,
lake chaplian, St Lawence Seaway to Montreal, so I have some basic
understanding of bouys, etc.
My quick question is something like this: if I am crusing about 5-15
miles off shore and see a red bouy, even before I look at the chart,
what should I be thinking? Which side do I want to pass it on? Is
there a slogan like the "right on red when returning" that I should be
thinking? thanks for your time.
just so you know, I would check the chart first, before I proceeded.

aid to navigation question
 

Along the Atlantic Coast, "from sea" follows a North to South, East to
West, direction

Richard Malcolm wrote:

I find such good info here that before I open up Chapmans, I thought I
would ask if someone wants to explain something to me. To give you a
little background, I have travelled in my boat from Boston, Maine,
cape cod, to NYC, ICW, hudson River, erie canal, many of the canals,
lake chaplian, St Lawence Seaway to Montreal, so I have some basic
understanding of bouys, etc.
My quick question is something like this: if I am crusing about 5-15
miles off shore and see a red bouy, even before I look at the chart,
what should I be thinking? Which side do I want to pass it on? Is
there a slogan like the "right on red when returning" that I should be
thinking? thanks for your time.
just so you know, I would check the chart first, before I proceeded.

aid to navigation question
 

You really need 2 markers to determine what you are looking at. Just remember
"RRR" applies when the numbers are getting higher. If the numbers are getting
smaller you are "leaving", not "returning".
When you get inshore you really need a chart to figure out what you are looking
at. Even then "privately maintained" markers may not be charted but they will
look exactly like the USCG markers and can be in very close proximity to a
channel with similar numbering. The area around Big Carlos Pass in SW Florida
is notorious for conflicting channel markings. We have 2 channels running next
to each other, winding their way through the mangroves and it is very easy to
jump from one to the other by accident, ending up in the wrong river.

aid to navigation question
 

Richard Malcolm wrote:

...My quick question is something like this: if I am crusing about 5-15
miles off shore and see a red bouy, even before I look at the chart,
what should I be thinking?

That there's something wrong with your DR from your last position ;)

A red marker is not going to be 5 miles out unless you're approaching a
really major port.


Which side do I want to pass it on?

Unfortunately, there is no way to tell 'instantly.' Is it a sea channel
bouy? A cardinal mark on a rock or wreck? A weather data bouy?

*If* it is a sea channel marker, at 5 miles out you should be able to pass
it on either side unless your boat draws a LOT or there is some special
circumstance, like the underwater sea wall at Tybee Roads.... the only
thing I can say is, there is no way to tell without reference to your
chart.


Is
there a slogan like the "right on red when returning" that I should be
thinking?

Yes, and as otnmbrd said, "returning" not only means going from sea
towards a harbor, but also counts as going counter-clockwise around the
continent, if you're on the eastern coast of the US.

thanks for your time.
just so you know, I would check the chart first, before I proceeded.

Smart move. Me too!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

aid to navigation question
 

DSK wrote:
Richard Malcolm wrote:


...My quick question is something like this: if I am crusing about 5-15
miles off shore and see a red bouy, even before I look at the chart,
what should I be thinking?


That there's something wrong with your DR from your last position ;)

A red marker is not going to be 5 miles out unless you're approaching a
really major port.



Which side do I want to pass it on?


Unfortunately, there is no way to tell 'instantly.' Is it a sea channel
bouy? A cardinal mark on a rock or wreck? A weather data bouy?

*If* it is a sea channel marker, at 5 miles out you should be able to pass
it on either side unless your boat draws a LOT or there is some special
circumstance, like the underwater sea wall at Tybee Roads.... the only
thing I can say is, there is no way to tell without reference to your
chart.

I may be missing something here, but not sure I agree fully with the above.
Let's say you're running down (north to south) the Jersey shore in
between inlets, and you come across a red buoy (BG there may be one
along here someplace, if memory serves) .... You would keep that to stbd
as you proceeded southbound.
Now, admittedly, the danger it was marking may be close aboard and leave
you room to pass inshore (draft considerations), but that fact would
only come from checking the chart, so again, heading southerly,
offshore, you see a red buoy, keep it to stbd, along the Atlantic coastline.

otn



Is
there a slogan like the "right on red when returning" that I should be
thinking?


Yes, and as otnmbrd said, "returning" not only means going from sea
towards a harbor, but also counts as going counter-clockwise around the
continent, if you're on the eastern coast of the US.


thanks for your time.
just so you know, I would check the chart first, before I proceeded.


Smart move. Me too!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

aid to navigation question
 

.. wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:43:47 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:



I may be missing something here, but not sure I agree fully with the above.
Let's say you're running down (north to south) the Jersey shore in
between inlets, and you come across a red buoy (BG there may be one
along here someplace, if memory serves) ....


It *is* true that the East Coast shore faces generally "east", but not
all East Coast "shores" face due East. Some face due North or South.

Nothing to do with what I'm saying. I apologize, if not all shorelines
face due East .... you will just have to learn to interpolate the
"southerly and westerly" directions.



You would keep that to stbd
as you proceeded southbound.
Now, admittedly, the danger it was marking may be close aboard and leave
you room to pass inshore (draft considerations), but that fact would
only come from checking the chart, so again, heading southerly,
offshore, you see a red buoy, keep it to stbd, along the Atlantic coastline.


And hope that the next red buoy, which is to your port side, is seen
so that you can alter course to the East and avoid the "wall" running
from Northwest to Southeast.

Look at the chart.

OK, let me try this again. You are heading southbound along the Jersey
Shore, and you are offshore between inlets. You run across a great big
old Nun buoy, sitting out there on it's lonesome (no channel
around)....what side do you take it on?
You take it on your stbd side. It is marking a hazard.... check your
chart, but leave it on your stbd hand.
On the Atlantic seaboard, you are coming from sea, when you are heading
in a southerly and/or westerly direction where buoy recognition is
concerned.
In the Gulf, it's south to north, east to west, and on the Pacific,
south to north, west to east.


otn

aid to navigation question
 

.. wrote:

snip

I don't disagree with anything you have said. I merely point out that
there are other considerations. Red buoys don't JUST mark channel
edges. They may also mark hazards to the entrances of major ports for
several miles and funnel the traffic toward the channel. My scenario
was to describe a situation where the recognition of only ONE red buoy
and maintaining a course East of same may not be enough to keep the
captain and vessel from harm.


This is fine, but I believe the original poster was talking about a
buoy, well offshore, nowhere near any harbor, not related to any harbor,
not near or about any channel, entrance or approach to a harbor .... by
itself, alone .... In this case, traveling in a Southerly direction on
the Atlantic Coastline, you will leave this buoy to stbd. If you see a
buoy like that... there aren't all that many .... you should immediately
check your chart to see where the hazard is. However, if you don't have
a chart .... leave the buoy to stbd and give it plenty of searoom. They
do exist out there, and the recognition of only ONE red buoy, becomes
important as to how you should expect to pass it.

otn

aid to navigation question
 

On 5 Sep 2003 06:34:13 -0700, (Richard
Malcolm) wrote:
I find such good info here that before I open up Chapmans, I thought I
would ask if someone wants to explain something to me. To give you a
little background, I have travelled in my boat from Boston, Maine,
cape cod, to NYC, ICW, hudson River, erie canal, many of the canals,
lake chaplian, St Lawence Seaway to Montreal, so I have some basic
understanding of bouys, etc.
My quick question is something like this: if I am crusing about 5-15
miles off shore and see a red bouy, even before I look at the chart,
what should I be thinking? Which side do I want to pass it on? Is
there a slogan like the "right on red when returning" that I should be
thinking? thanks for your time.
just so you know, I would check the chart first, before I proceeded.
===============================================
Lots of good answers for the most part, starting with "check your
chart".

This reminds me of an amusing story however from early in my sailing
days back in the 70s. It seems hard to believe now, but we had very
little in the way of electronic nav aids then, and it was common to
sail all day on dead reckoning without knowing precisely where you
were. Therefore, any offshore buoy sighting was a welcome thing and a
chance to reset your DR plot from a precisely known location. So
after sailing west all day without a position fix from Marthas
Vineyard toward Block Island, we suddenly spotted a large red sea buoy
in the distance. Inspection of the DR plot showed no buoys within 5
or 6 miles of our estimated position so this was a cause for some
concern. We shifted course to bring us close enough to see the
markings on the buoy and the only things visible were the letters
"AC". More scrambling around with the chart and DR plot followed, and
no trace of a buoy labeled AC could be found anywhere. We proceeded on
and eventually picked up Block Island more or less where it was
supposed to be and finally had a confirmed position again.

Later that year in the fall we drove out to Newport, RI for the
America's cup elimination trials, chartered a skippered power boat for
the weekend, and headed out to watch the races. The starting mark
turned out to be a large red buoy labeled "AC".

Moral of the story is that you really do need to read the "Notices to
Mariners" once in a while. I don't know too many people who do that
however and I'm as guilty as anyone else.

A bit of trivia for the sailors in the group: the skipper of the
defending boat that year was a guy named Ted Turner, and his tactician
was some fellow from the west coast named Dennis Conner. It was 1974
and for the first time the defending boat was NOT built of wood.

aid to navigation question
 

This is fine, but I believe the original poster was talking about a
buoy, well offshore, nowhere near any harbor, not related to any harbor,
not near or about any channel, entrance or approach to a harbor .... by
itself, alone ....
YES, EXACTLY MY QUESTION

In this case, traveling in a Southerly direction on
the Atlantic Coastline, you will leave this buoy to stbd. If you see a
buoy like that... there aren't all that many

YOU MAY BE RIGHT, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME, LAST WEEK WHEN I WENT FROM
BOSTON HARBOR TO PORTLAND, ME, I SAW QUITE A FEW

.... you should immediately check your chart to see where the hazard
is. However, if you don't have
a chart ....
I ALMOST ALWAYS DO HAVE ONE

leave the buoy to stbd and give it plenty of searoom. They
do exist out there, and the recognition of only ONE red buoy, becomes
important as to how you should expect to pass it.

THANKS, I am begining to get it. "Returning" in the RRR not only means
into a harbor, up a river, or small to big numbers, it also means,
when on the East Coast, travelling southerly or westerly.

Can I assume, without making an ass of u or me, that if it is a big
old lonely green one that I would treat it the opposite of the red
one? and if I was heading North I would do the opposite of heading
southerly?

either way, check the chart!

aid to navigation question
 

A bit of trivia for the sailors in the group: the skipper of the
defending boat that year was a guy named Ted Turner, and his tactician
was some fellow from the west coast named Dennis Conner. It was 1974
and for the first time the defending boat was NOT built of wood.


Good story, well told.

I hope you guys have stories to get us through the winter.

aid to navigation question
 

Yes. It's been quite awhile since I've traveled any East coast waters,
but I remember there POSSIBLY being one or two along the Carolina's,
between Atlantic City and New York, Boston to Cape Ann? You'd have to
look at various charts (any of the above may be wrong or no longer exist
..... as I say, old memories BG check the charts).
As for your second part .... correct, but here you are talking about a
channel which, for the most part, is taking you from the East to a point
inland, to the West (loosely).

otn

Ron Thornton wrote:
Are red and green buoys ever set alone and for anything but a channel?
I've never seen one without the other. Offshore from Va Beach we have
many marking the shipping channel approaches to the Chesapeake bay. As
I recall they are alway RRR approaching from the north or south.

Ron

aid to navigation question
 

Richard Malcolm wrote:

This is fine, but I believe the original poster was talking about a
buoy, well offshore, nowhere near any harbor, not related to any harbor,
not near or about any channel, entrance or approach to a harbor .... by
itself, alone ....

YES, EXACTLY MY QUESTION

In this case, traveling in a Southerly direction on

the Atlantic Coastline, you will leave this buoy to stbd. If you see a
buoy like that... there aren't all that many


YOU MAY BE RIGHT, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME, LAST WEEK WHEN I WENT FROM
BOSTON HARBOR TO PORTLAND, ME, I SAW QUITE A FEW

I would be dealing off of old memories, but seem to remember at least
one between Boston and Cape Ann. Overall, taken along the entire
Atlantic coastline, I don't remember all that many, so many boaters will
never encounter the situation.

.... you should immediately check your chart to see where the hazard
is. However, if you don't have

a chart ....

I ALMOST ALWAYS DO HAVE ONE

leave the buoy to stbd and give it plenty of searoom. They

do exist out there, and the recognition of only ONE red buoy, becomes
important as to how you should expect to pass it.


THANKS, I am begining to get it. "Returning" in the RRR not only means
into a harbor, up a river, or small to big numbers, it also means,
when on the East Coast, travelling southerly or westerly.

Can I assume, without making an ass of u or me, that if it is a big
old lonely green one that I would treat it the opposite of the red
one? and if I was heading North I would do the opposite of heading
southerly?

Yes


otn
either way, check the chart!

PS The area most people will associate the "southerly" heading to this
subject, is traveling down the ICW. Here, things can get confusing when
the ICW crosses a main channel and you can see something like a Green
can with a red triangular daymark..

aid to navigation question
 

"Paul" wrote in message . rogers.com...

Good story, well told.

I hope you guys have stories to get us through the winter.
==============================

Glad you liked it.

I have a story to get ME through the winter:

Bought a house in Florida and hope to spend some quality time pool side
while I watch the new dock being built. Mrs B wants her new kitchen so we
traded for a dock.

aid to navigation question
 

Other channels, such as the ICW or Chesapeake Bay, consider
north bound 'returning.'

The Chesapeake is basically oriented south to north with Baltimore at the top
but the ICW has lots of places where the "port" is south of the point of entry
from the sea. The ICW behind Miami Beach is one.

aid to navigation question
 

DSK wrote:

otnmbrd wrote:


OK, let me try this again. You are heading southbound along the Jersey
Shore, and you are offshore between inlets. You run across a great big
old Nun buoy, sitting out there on it's lonesome (no channel
around)....what side do you take it on?
You take it on your stbd side. It is marking a hazard.... check your
chart, but leave it on your stbd hand.


That would be a safe assumption, in the absence of any other info.

What other info are you looking for here?


On the Atlantic seaboard, you are coming from sea, when you are heading
in a southerly and/or westerly direction where buoy recognition is
concerned.


Not true, look in the pilots. If you are going north, it's considered 'returning'
unless it is a sea channel. Trying to follow 'Red Right Returning' when southbound
will put you into trouble except at the outermost sea bouys, whihc is the case you
were discussing above. Other channels, such as the ICW or Chesapeake Bay, consider
north bound 'returning.'

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I had to read this a few times to glean what you were saying.
When proceeding down along the Atlantic coastline, at sea, you will be
heading in a general Southerly and Westerly direction, and any buoy you
cross paths with, will be (such as the one the original poster was
asking about)RRR.
Now, when you come to an entrance to a harbor, the buoy numbering will
commence and you will work on the basis of RRR, whether the actual
channel goes mostly North, West, or Southwest, because you will be
heading from the entrance ("generally" the Easternmost point), i.e. you
need to check your chart for the numbering as well as the overall
direction (we can all see areas such as LIS, Cape Cod, etc. which would
appear to throw the North-South, East- West, criteria off .... and yes,
the Chesapeake included, though, here you start at a point to the East
and then proceed to the Northwest(westerly direction).
For the ICW, mile one is in Norfolk, if memory serves, and proceeding
down the ICW in a Southerly direction from here, is considered returning
from sea. Naturally, those who view the run from Norfolk through Cape
May as still part of the ICW will need check their charts, as I'm not
sure how the buoys for the C&D or Cape May Canal, etc. are numbered.
The overall Southerly direction, is just that ....overall ....
individual harbors can run in all sorts of directions and need to be
viewed individually. The North to South, East to West is a basic
beginning point to start from, WHEN COMING FROM SEA.

otn

aid to navigation question
 

Gfretwell wrote:

The Chesapeake is basically oriented south to north with Baltimore at the top
but the ICW has lots of places where the "port" is south of the point of entry
from the sea. The ICW behind Miami Beach is one.

Check the USCG and Corp of Engineers. The ICW is "returning" if traveling south to
north on the East Coast, west to east on the Gulf.

There are lots of other channels which are connected by the ICW, which you transit
if following the ICW, which are marked differently because they are going from the
sea to a specific port. Their markers are not considered to be the same as ICW
markers, in fact in many places there are two sets of markers. It can get
confusing, which is one reason why I would not encourage anybody to try and
navigate without a chart.

DSK

aid to navigation question
 

There are lots of other channels which are connected by the ICW, which you
transit
if following the ICW, which are marked differently

That sort of defeats the "south to north" assumption then doesn't it? The
places I have seen only have one set of markers in any specific segment and
they may switch directions/numbering at every pass to the sea. You are right
about having a good chart if you lack the local knowlege because there are
plenty of places where the markers are confusing at best and contradictory at
the worst.
Personally I think they should require different markers for ICW, Local
government and privately maintained but they are all identical.
Here on the west coast of Fla we don't even have a decent standard about how
deep a marked channel has to be. The Estero River channel across Estero Bay
uses ICW style markers and you can see wading birds in the middle on a winter
low tide.

aid to navigation question
 

Well, dealing from memory strikes again .... I've found at least one
error in memory.
The designation as an ICW marker was, in my memory, the red triangle or
green square. This should be yellow triangle, yellow square.

Question: Since Charleston has all ready been used .... when coming from
sea into Charleston, you can either head North up the ICW, or South,
down the ICW .... lets go south. What are the markers or buoys you
encounter as you enter and progress southbound..... keep in mind, I'm
asking about ICW markings, which are not necessarily IALA-B.

This may be part of our dissension ..... for instance, the fact that
arriving from sea into Charleston, when you turn right into Isle of
Palms the system starts and heads North RRR, has nothing to do with it's
ICW significance and everything to do with it's "from sea" significance
(and North, is not paramount).

otn

otnmbrd wrote:


DSK wrote:

Gfretwell wrote:


The Chesapeake is basically oriented south to north with Baltimore at
the top
but the ICW has lots of places where the "port" is south of the point
of entry
from the sea. The ICW behind Miami Beach is one.



Check the USCG and Corp of Engineers. The ICW is "returning" if
traveling south to
north on the East Coast, west to east on the Gulf.


Whew!!! totally disagree with this!!! Where do you find this
information? Aside from the fact that the "Corp" and "USCG" are not the
authorities......though they are intimately involved with replacing the
markers. This totally goes against the clockwise rotation around the
continent!!


There are lots of other channels which are connected by the ICW, which
you transit
if following the ICW, which are marked differently because they are
going from the
sea to a specific port. Their markers are not considered to be the
same as ICW
markers, in fact in many places there are two sets of markers. It can get
confusing, which is one reason why I would not encourage anybody to
try and
navigate without a chart.

DSK

Here, I'm digging deep into memory (so it may be totally out of wack)
Didn't the ICW numbers start at Norfolk, mile one, and increased from
there based on "mile numbers"?

otn

aid to navigation question
 

otnmbrd wrote:

Well, dealing from memory strikes again .... I've found at least one
error in memory.
The designation as an ICW marker was, in my memory, the red triangle or
green square. This should be yellow triangle, yellow square.

No, the only thing that distinguishes an ICW marker from a sea channel is a
small Corp of Engineers symbol near the top, and some of them say "ICW" along
with the number. They are red & green IAW the IALA-B system.

But speaking of memory failures, since I have been so adamant about North/CCW
being counted as "returning" let me be equally vocal in saying I WAS WRONG!
Major brain fart, don't know how I misremembered this. I looked in Chapman's
this morning and at several charts of areas I am familiar with... apparently not
familiar enough!



Question: Since Charleston has all ready been used .... when coming from
sea into Charleston, you can either head North up the ICW, or South,
down the ICW .... lets go south. What are the markers or buoys you
encounter as you enter and progress southbound..... keep in mind, I'm
asking about ICW markings, which are not necessarily IALA-B.

Going south, you'd follow the Charleston harbor channel marks, then the Ashley
River, then into a creek with a funny name (can't recall) just opposite the
Charleston City marina. IIRC (although why I should trust my memory now) the
system switches from the Ashley River bouyage to ICW bouyage at the mouth of
that creek. And as you said all along, going south it would still be Red Right
Returning.

In the opposite case, as soon you go from Charleston Harbor, heading north, into
the Isle of Palms channel, you are following ICW markers and it switches to
"Returning = clockwise around the continent" so you'd take green to starboard.



This may be part of our dissension .....

No, our dissension was based on a major malfunction on my part. I apologize and
hope that most people who have to do any serious navigating would go to the
books rather stake their safety on internet chatter.

I usually try to be a serious and reliable source of info, but blew it this
time!

However, if you were going south offshore and encountered a green sea channel
marker, it would still be correct to take it on one's right-hand side ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King