WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

Why not have a VHF? You can listen in to the VTC, and be told about the
big boats arriving in good time. I have a lot of use for that when
sailing inside VTC zones.

Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo
helped us recover a sunken kayak.

It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them
are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice.


Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed,
limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them
to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because
they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area,
safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially
more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water.
They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they
enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or
because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No
matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able
to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows.

The law abiding skippers sometimes have a pretty hard time with all the
other craft. Just listen to the commercial fishing skippers.

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just
fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there
that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the
beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you
there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps. ;)

C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1
mile from shore?

Zoning?

You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less
expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us
kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer
to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally
relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what
we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use
their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it?

I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the
daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.

With sailboats, we can escape to the ocean. Very few bubbas and incompetent
motorboat skippers there.

One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a
power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and
certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere
from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will
give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do
so.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is
limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal
You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the
channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power
boats aren't.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light. ;)

Nope. But when you cross, do so in a way predictable to the large vessels.

They also need 5-7 knots of speed to be able to manouver properly. With
less than 3 knots they are dead in the water and need thrusters and/or
tugs to operate. You really DON'T want them to have to press the brake for
you.

You just go for it and pray to come out alive.

You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration
from them, try giving it to them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.

A few inquests has done away with that here. Suddenly the promising
salarymen were cons with drug&alcohol and violence crimes on their
records. Not what you would like on your CV.

Several of these inquests had other, experienced boaters who kept
their calm as witnesses.

Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the
occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater
inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was
inconvenienced by you.

Lee

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The
ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or
declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle.

Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more
rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are
needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you
can always choose the smaller motorboats out there.

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete set of diving gear
for what a new Genua costs. And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

-- mrr

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.


-hh

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 24, 6:28*am, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,





KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,
Two meter troll wrote:

On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered
waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ;
"bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar
boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the
VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast
majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1]

When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted,
but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows.

Garbage TV is the same everywhere.

Yep, but it always comes from the same place. ;)


I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American
dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in

No, we don't have much of the industrial pollution. Rules for the
oil industry are strict; and the plants tend to have localised
pollution, and are put in some desolate place between steep
mountains. The cruise ships don't go to those fjords.

They even put back some water in the waterfalls for the tourists
to watch. Normally any waterfall of any size would have been put
in pipes to make hydropower.

Wherever you go in Norway, you don't see piles of garbage, not even a
piece of paper on the ground. I wonder if our politicians could ever
go there and bring back some ideas.


the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats
do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers
and other civilized people.

Nowadays, we MAKE a lot of those boats. And the Swedes make a lot
of the engines. Also sold in America.

The entrepreneurs among us saw Miami Vice, and thought "I can make
those cheaper and better".

-- mrr- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, it's like Volvo. They also got into the SUV craze... Not as
stupid as our Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles but still unnecessary. Good
old fashioned station wagons are still the best.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 23, 4:39*pm, -hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. *With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?

First of all, there are "lions" out there and "wannabes." Meaning
there are many big yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds owned by the ones that
want to imitate the others. The former you see either cruising slowly
on their yachts or racing by on their fast boats. The latter are the
ones that bring their extended family to the islands out there and
leave all the garbage behind.

In other words, motorboating has become democratic and even the dog
participates in the affair. Actually, there are ads on TV that promote
motorboating as a fun thing for the whole family --and the dog.

It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars. "Money to burn"=Big Yacht &
SUV. "Survivor"=old car and boat.


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see it floating all over the
place.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get some serious second hand
smoke.


Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't even make it to the water
(they look good parked on the driveway). And the kayaks stay away from
those motorboat highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

But your common sense tells you they are a real threat. More than
terrorists, say. ;)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 23, 5:57 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
Batteries may get damaged by sea water or just get depleted. I have
one on my canoe to power my trolling motor. I changed to AGM though
because they are water and leakproof.

Batteries in boats are generally protected against sea water or of a type
that is not easily damaged, like the AGM battery you use. As it happens I
use them too. As for getting depleted, that's what chargers are for. By
the way, your battery is much more likely to become depeleted than mine.
Perhaps it Kayakers that are leaving them.

You do know that, by putting a trolling motor on your kayak, you're
classified as a power boat, right?

Oh, give me a break. At worst I'd be a hybrid. Small, slow, noiseless
and backed up by paddles.

And still I've got the kayak that goes on banana power alone (meaning
I eat the bananas that power the boat). ;)


Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think
MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO
HAVE A DEGREE OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS.

Yet, in the same post, you identified yourself as a power boater.

But not a threat to anything. Certainly not a couch potato looking for
adventure.


My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs. ;)

It's almost exactly the same threat as mine. An anchor that sets and stays
in place, does very little damage to anything and there's already a law
requiring people to anchor in adjacent sand areas rather than on coral.
Chain and line, on the other hand, can do quite a bit of damage, whether
attached to a kayak or different kind of power boat.

I'd look before I anchor to a reef, don't you?


How much you need for a motorboat?

Which power boat? I have three and, as I've already mentioned, a kayak.
Anchors for each boat is designed for the boat I use it with. My smallest
power boat uses an anchor just like the one I use for the kayak.

OK, why don't you get rid of the big ones?

But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

What you can smell is not harming the reefs. As for what you doubt, I
suggest you learn a bit more before getting it wrong again. If you're
talking about human waste by those on boats, I'm afraid you'll have to
include kayakers in your list. It's legal for either of us to use the
ocean as a bathroom. It is not legal for me to discharge my head directly
overboard or to discharge my holding tank within coastal waters. The sewage
outfalls in Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties, on the other hand, pump
millions of gallons of partially treated sewage and chemicals onto the reefs
every day.

Can the government ever be that bad? They claim they treat everything
at Virginia Key...


The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%) . . .

You know that includes your kayak, right?

I've been boating in south Florida for 54 years. I've never had an
accident. Imagine that.

Lee

Do you do kayaking by any chance, or you just represent the
motorboating association?

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 24, 7:07*am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
wrote:

On Aug 24, 7:07=A0am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zon=
es
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lane=
s
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;)
Damn, what an ass, you must be French

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

KingOfTheApes wrote:
" wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.
I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

You lose. I was trying to insult you, but you're too dense to recognize it.

Oh, yeah, PLONK

Steve

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 24, 4:42*pm, (Rod) wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana





wrote:
On Aug 24, 7:07=A0am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zon=
es
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lane=
s
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;)

Damn, what an ass, you must be French- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How clever. If I was French, I'd signing something like
LeComandanteBanana. ;)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 24, 6:11*pm, Steve Cramer wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
" wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.
I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

You lose. I was trying to insult you, but you're too dense to recognize it.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

ComandanteBanana wrote:
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating
are poorly educated and...

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction
you're making, by first talking about how
these boats are huge and expensive, yet now
they're owned by uneducated high school
dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes...

First of all, there are "lions" out there
and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big
yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds
...
It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars.
"Money to burn"=Big Yacht & SUV.
"Survivor"=old car and boat.

Agreed, but this is hardly new news. Mahogany hulled Chris-Craft
powerboats have been around since the 1920s, as well as efforts over
the years to broaden the market base to the middle class; one can
suggest that Boston Whaler contributed to this trend too, staring in
the mid-1950s.


But motorboat pollution contributes to
"the soup" out there too...

You sure that you're not smelling naturally
occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs
through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see
it floating all over the place.

Maybe in a marina. Gas is a light aeromatic and disappears quite
rapidly. If its not natural marsh stuff, its more likely to be
diesel, which tends to be more of what larger working boats tend to
use, not your generic commercial pleasure boat 30ft.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get
some serious second hand smoke.

While there's always going to be the occasional gross polluter, they
generally are quite uncommon. Turbo-diesels will smoke when under
heavy load, such as a 40 footer trying to get home on one engine.


0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *
You would have to boat for over 25 years just
to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't
even make it to the water (they look good parked
on the driveway).

Catch-22 alert: if these are your high risk "unskilled" boaters, if
they're parked at home, they can't be a risk at sea.

And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat
highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

Kayaks aren't a class of boat requiring registration, so the actual
total numbers are higher, which means that the actual statistical risk
is even lower.


But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say. ;)

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.


-hh

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

In article ,
-hh wrote:
Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.

Basic, cheap dacron 140% Genua for 14.65 meter mast : $3500
150% dacron with some fibres for stiffening : $4500
Mylar 150% deck-swiper with woven fibres : $6000
...
Kevlar/Carbon racing genua, 150% : $14000

I guess you could just squeeze in ABC/wetsuit/tank/bcd/reg+bottom timer for $3500.

$14k should buy you a decent computer, doubles, drysuit&undergarments and a camera too.

-- mrr

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 23, 6:06 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

It exists everywhere you're ever likely to be in your kayak. There's more
enforcement on the intracoastal, per boater, than in any city or state
anywhere near here.

Yes, you are a sitting duck, which is a really good reason not to go where
you can't be safe. I presume you would not ride your bicycle on I-95, which
would you ride you kayak in a zone where running on a plane is legal?

Not only I wouldn't ride on a highway, I wouldn't even ride on the
street right in front of my door. It's so bad that most people stay
away from riding bikes on the road around here and rather ride the
sidewalks...

Of course, you ain't safe there either. Just today, as I was coming
down on the sidewalk to cross this intersection, a car came blasting
the horn at me because he felt every right to beat me to the corner. I
had to use my brakes to the limit or else. That was a close call. And
the guy kept going like nothing. I'm sure he knows we've got few
rights --if any.

Then you realize you live in the jungle.

Welcome to the Jungle --if you dare.

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? ;)
http://webspwner.com/users/bananarevolution

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 25, 4:52*pm, -hh wrote:

But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say. ;)

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. *Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.

-hh- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Life was very unfair when the Vikings went around pillaging and
killing left and right. But they are today very civilized people, even
showing respect for nature as well as for the little guy on the bike
or kayak.

So I hope other "less-than-civilized" people can evolve too.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 25, 6:07*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,



-hh wrote:
Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. *For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. *Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. *Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. *Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.

Basic, cheap dacron 140% Genua for 14.65 meter mast : $3500
150% dacron with some fibres for stiffening * * * * : $4500
Mylar 150% deck-swiper with woven fibres * * * * * *: $6000
..
Kevlar/Carbon racing genua, 150% * * * * * * * * * *: $14000

I guess you could just squeeze in ABC/wetsuit/tank/bcd/reg+bottom timer for $3500.

$14k should buy you a decent computer, doubles, drysuit&undergarments and a camera too.

In the old days of 35mm film, a Nikonos V body was $700, the Nikkor
15mm WA lens with viewfinder was $2K, plus the strobe heads that I
currently have were $1K each, plus strobe arms, chargers & other
bits. I figure that I had spent around $6K for my current setup.

In going digital:

$~3.K - Canon 5D replacement that's rumored to be announced tomorrow
$1.6K - "cheap" (pexiglass) Ikelite housing
$0.6K - 8" port for above, with one modular extension
$0.8K - decent WA lens (17-35mm L)
$1.0K - Ikelite DS-160 strobe head, synch cord & charger
$0.8K - Ikelite DS-160 strobe head & synch cord
$0.2K - two spare strobe battery packs
$~.5K - Ultralite strobe arms (if I'm lucky)
--------
$8.5K and counting. Still haven't picked up the misc bits or a case
to transport it in.

If you want to take it to a high end system, add another $2-$3K to
move up from a pexiglass housing to metal casting, as well as another
$3K-$5K to go to a Pro camera body (1Ds Mark III)...and bump the
strobes up to the digital replacement model of what I have now
(DS-200)...and add a few more lenses and matching port extensions.
Very easy to crack $14K for just the UW camera.


-hh

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 25, 5:51*pm, -hh wrote:

If you want to take it to a high end system, add another $2-$3K to
move up from a pexiglass housing to metal casting, as well as another
$3K-$5K to go to a Pro camera body (1Ds Mark III)...and bump the
strobes up to the digital replacement model of what I have now
(DS-200)...and add a few more lenses and matching port extensions.
Very easy to crack $14K for just the UW camera.

Not sure the pro camera bodies are worth it. Plenty of u/w "pros" are
using "semi-pro". Speaking of which, I picked up an extra D200 body,
brand new, for under $1,000 from B&H. That's the problem with digital
camera housings, once your camera becomes obsolete and it floods,
prepare to buy a new housing or find what you can on eBay. This will
be an insurance policy to extend the life of my expensive housing,
plus serve as a land camera since I can leave the strap on full-time.

So now, packing my camera for Bonaire next week, I'm bringing 2 camera
bodies, 4 lenses, 4 camera batteries, camera battery charger, various
filters and diopters, 3 strobes, 4 strobe battery packs, 3 strobe
battery chargers, 2 sync cords, focus light, assorted arms and clamps,
camera housing, extended viewfinder, two ports, various extension
rings and focus gears, all packed in a nice indestructable case that
comes out to just over 65 lbs full. Oh, and the laptop, memory cards,
and memory card reader, can't forget those. The cameras and lenses
and laptop obviously have to go in carry-on, along with the regs and
computers, and now the airlines have cut luggage limits to 50 lbs, one
bag per passenger.

Which reminds me, time to renew my insurance on all that since I dare
not lock any of it for TSA, and Bonaire isn't exactly the most crime-
free destination.

A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule itsroads
 

10 Cyclists Struck by a Taxi on the Causeway to Miami Beach

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=457751


"A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads;
if we want to ensure fairness, government must act to protect the
weak."

And why should we protect the monkey, not the lion? Because then the
lion will eat the monkey, stupid. And that keeps the other monkeys
terrorized, which is not what we want. We want them to come out,
right?

Here's a smart comment on the subject...

"The purpose of the police power is to protect public health, safety,
and welfare. When it comes down to cars vs. bicycles, the latter need
greater protection than the former -- after all, cars kill more
Americans than guns do, whereas beds kill more Americans than bikes
do.

That's why places which truly embrace bicycling as a valid (and safe)
mode of transportation have laws that aren't fair: bicycles get more
rights than cars. In many northern European countries, the driver is
always at fault in a bicycle-car crash. Some municipalities even
completely exempt bicycles from many road regulations (like one-way
traffic flow) -- since such regulations are often intended to regulate
cars (in the one-way example, that street might be too narrow for two
cars to pass but plenty wide for two bikes to pass).

A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads;
if we want to ensure fairness, government must act to protect the
weak.

The #1 reason that people cite for not bicycling more often is that
they feel that biking is unsafe. It isn't, really -- in fact, not
bicycling degrades your life expectancy more than bicycling -- but it
can be made much safer through good policies, enforced fairly."

Posted by PCC | June 25, 2008 8:30 PM

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.c..._hierarchy.php

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:52:22 -0700 (PDT), -hh
wrote:

ComandanteBanana wrote:
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating
are poorly educated and...

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction
you're making, by first talking about how
these boats are huge and expensive, yet now
they're owned by uneducated high school
dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes...

First of all, there are "lions" out there
and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big
yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds
...
It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars.
"Money to burn"=3DBig Yacht & SUV.
"Survivor"=3Dold car and boat.

Agreed, but this is hardly new news. Mahogany hulled Chris-Craft
powerboats have been around since the 1920s, as well as efforts over
the years to broaden the market base to the middle class; one can
suggest that Boston Whaler contributed to this trend too, staring in
the mid-1950s.


But motorboat pollution contributes to
"the soup" out there too...

You sure that you're not smelling naturally
occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs
through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see
it floating all over the place.

Maybe in a marina. Gas is a light aeromatic and disappears quite
rapidly. If its not natural marsh stuff, its more likely to be
diesel, which tends to be more of what larger working boats tend to
use, not your generic commercial pleasure boat 30ft.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get
some serious second hand smoke.

While there's always going to be the occasional gross polluter, they
generally are quite uncommon. Turbo-diesels will smoke when under
heavy load, such as a 40 footer trying to get home on one engine.


0.04% incidence. =A0Yes, very 'startling'. =A0
You would have to boat for over 25 years just
to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't
even make it to the water (they look good parked
on the driveway).

Catch-22 alert: if these are your high risk "unskilled" boaters, if
they're parked at home, they can't be a risk at sea.

And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat
highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

Kayaks aren't a class of boat requiring registration, so the actual
total numbers are higher, which means that the actual statistical risk
is even lower.


But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say. ;)

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.


-hh

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:19:41 -0700 (PDT), KingOfTheApes
wrote:

On Aug 23, 6:06 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

It exists everywhere you're ever likely to be in your kayak. There's more
enforcement on the intracoastal, per boater, than in any city or state
anywhere near here.

Yes, you are a sitting duck, which is a really good reason not to go where
you can't be safe. I presume you would not ride your bicycle on I-95, which
would you ride you kayak in a zone where running on a plane is legal?

Not only I wouldn't ride on a highway, I wouldn't even ride on the
street right in front of my door. It's so bad that most people stay
away from riding bikes on the road around here and rather ride the
sidewalks...

Of course, you ain't safe there either. Just today, as I was coming
down on the sidewalk to cross this intersection, a car came blasting
the horn at me because he felt every right to beat me to the corner. I
had to use my brakes to the limit or else. That was a close call. And
the guy kept going like nothing. I'm sure he knows we've got few
rights --if any.

Then you realize you live in the jungle.

Welcome to the Jungle --if you dare.

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? ;)
http://webspwner.com/users/bananarevolution
Sounds like you are suffering from "lack of sack" desease and whinning
about it. Bycyles have as much right on our roadways as cars do, and
have no right on the side walks.

A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads
 

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:51:35 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
wrote:

10 Cyclists Struck by a Taxi on the Causeway to Miami Beach

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=457751


"A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads;
if we want to ensure fairness, government must act to protect the
weak."

And why should we protect the monkey, not the lion? Because then the
lion will eat the monkey, stupid. And that keeps the other monkeys
terrorized, which is not what we want. We want them to come out,
right?

Here's a smart comment on the subject...

"The purpose of the police power is to protect public health, safety,
and welfare. When it comes down to cars vs. bicycles, the latter need
greater protection than the former -- after all, cars kill more
Americans than guns do, whereas beds kill more Americans than bikes
do.

That's why places which truly embrace bicycling as a valid (and safe)
mode of transportation have laws that aren't fair: bicycles get more
rights than cars. In many northern European countries, the driver is
always at fault in a bicycle-car crash. Some municipalities even
completely exempt bicycles from many road regulations (like one-way
traffic flow) -- since such regulations are often intended to regulate
cars (in the one-way example, that street might be too narrow for two
cars to pass but plenty wide for two bikes to pass).

A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads;
if we want to ensure fairness, government must act to protect the
weak.

The #1 reason that people cite for not bicycling more often is that
they feel that biking is unsafe. It isn't, really -- in fact, not
bicycling degrades your life expectancy more than bicycling -- but it
can be made much safer through good policies, enforced fairly."

Posted by PCC | June 25, 2008 8:30 PM

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.c..._hierarchy.php
As are the laws here, hit a bycyclest here and you are in trouble.
What happened to the cab driver ?

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Why would anyone care unless they were planning to sue or something?
I've been kayaking all over the east coast, from Maine to the
Everglades, and I find personal water craft far more irritating,
hazardous, and likely to be in unskilled hands than any kind of
smudgepot (power boat).

A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads
 

Here's a smart comment on the subject...

"The purpose of the police power is to protect public health, safety,
and welfare. When it comes down to cars vs. bicycles, the latter need
greater protection than the former -- after all, cars kill more
Americans than guns do, whereas beds kill more Americans than bikes
do.

Smart except for being completely wrong. The purpose of the police power is
to investigate, apprehend and bring criminals to the judicial portion of the
American system.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? What's a gas doc?

Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around. Presto, no
more gas slick.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Sounds like you are suffering from "lack of sack" desease and whinning
about it. Bycyles have as much right on our roadways as cars do, and
have no right on the side walks.

I believe that varies with location, but it's certainly true in many
locations.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Galen Hekhuis wrote

Why would anyone care unless they were planning to sue or something?
I've been kayaking all over the east coast, from Maine to the
Everglades, and I find personal water craft far more irritating,
hazardous, and likely to be in unskilled hands than any kind of
smudgepot (power boat).

You hit that one right on the nose except, of course, for the smudgepot
part.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

"Lee Bell" wrote:
Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? *What's a gas doc?

Dock. It doesn't matter too much anyway, because now the discussion
is shifting.

It started as claims of pollution from normal running conditions that
was observed along protected waters (eg, ICW), but this is talking
about a semi-"point" source of pollution, namely a spill occurring at
refueling stations.


Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around.
*Presto, no more gas slick.

Of course, another option when refueling, is to not spill so much fuel
(such that the Sheen Rule is invoked, etc).

And from a similar observation of human nature, a chronic spiller may
very well get inconvenienced by the owner of the refueling station to
report every spill no matter how small (ie, well below reporting
threshold). We can all figure out the real reasons why.


-hh

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

ComandanteBanana wrote:
"Lee Bell" wrote:

You do know that, by putting a trolling motor on your kayak, you're
classified as a power boat, right?

Oh, give me a break. At worst I'd be a hybrid. Small, slow, noiseless
and backed up by paddles.

Irrelevant, since "The Law is The Law".

At one point, my Canoe was registered as a 'powerboat'. And I recall
that it was a bit of a nuisance to get it fit with letters of the
required minimum height for its Registration#.


Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think
MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO
HAVE A DEGREE OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS.

Yet, in the same post, you identified yourself as a power boater.

But not a threat to anything.

Except as a threat to navigation, when in the wrong place.




My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs. ;)

It's almost exactly the same threat as mine. An anchor that sets and stays
in place, does very little damage to anything and there's already a law
requiring people to anchor in adjacent sand areas rather than on coral.
Chain and line, on the other hand, can do quite a bit of damage, whether
attached to a kayak or different kind of power boat.

I'd look before I anchor to a reef, don't you?

Oh, to always have the luxury of being able to look through perfectly
clear water.


How much you need for a motorboat?

Which power boat? I have three and, as I've already mentioned, a kayak.
Anchors for each boat is designed for the boat I use it with. My smallest
power boat uses an anchor just like the one I use for the kayak.

OK, why don't you get rid of the big ones?

The proper sizing of an anchor is predicted on several factors, not
just the size of the craft.



But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

What you can smell is not harming the reefs. As for what you doubt, I
suggest you learn a bit more before getting it wrong again. If you're
talking about human waste by those on boats, I'm afraid you'll have to
include kayakers in your list. It's legal for either of us to use the
ocean as a bathroom. It is not legal for me to discharge my head directly
overboard or to discharge my holding tank within coastal waters. The sewage
outfalls in Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties, on the other hand, pump
millions of gallons of partially treated sewage and chemicals onto the reefs
every day.

Can the government ever be that bad? They claim they treat everything
at Virginia Key...

http://www.reef-rescue.org/research/keywestcitizenpage1.pdf
http://www.reef-rescue.org/MiamiHerald/
Oceanisnoplacefortreatedsewage.pdf

Here's their homepage; note the 'Donate' button:
http://www.reef-rescue.org/


Do you do kayaking by any chance, or you just represent the
motorboating association?

Apparently, you find it utterly incomprehensible for there to be
people who actually own both powered and unpowered watercraft,
particularly when their perspectives and conclusions are at odds with
yours.



-hh

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? What's a gas doc?

Dock. It doesn't matter too much anyway, because now the discussion
is shifting.

I thought of that, but in all my years of boating, I've never seen a dock
surround anything. I considered that it might be a local company in the
business of spill mitigation.

Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around.
Presto, no more gas slick.

Of course, another option when refueling, is to not spill so much fuel
(such that the Sheen Rule is invoked, etc).

Not as much of an option as you'd think. You generally don't know your tank
is full until gas comes out of the overflow which, of course, is over the
water. Some gas is spilled more often than not. Gas evaporates pretty
quickly and such small amounts don't last long enough to be a significant
problem.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

You do know that, by putting a trolling motor on your kayak, you're
classified as a power boat, right?

Oh, give me a break. At worst I'd be a hybrid. Small, slow, noiseless
and backed up by paddles.

Still a power boat. So is a sailboat when under power, which they are most
of the time while in the Intracoastal.

At one point, my Canoe was registered as a 'powerboat'. And I recall
that it was a bit of a nuisance to get it fit with letters of the
required minimum height for its Registration#.

No more nuisance than any other boat. You left off the bother of having to
renew it every year. It's a tax, pure and simple. If you are documented,
it's worse. I don't have to display numbers, the name of the boat
identifies it. The numbers that match the name have to be permanently
carved into the boat somewhere. Mine are in a stringer in the engine room.
In addition to the Coast Guard document, which has to be renewed every year,
I have to have a Florida registration as well that alwo has to be renewed
every year.

I'd look before I anchor to a reef, don't you?

What am I going to see when the reef is more than 100 feet below and
visibility is 40 to 50 feet? I have an option most kayakers don't. I have
a color depth finder that can give me an idea of the nature of the bottom
below me. It's not always sure what I'm over, but I generally have at least
an idea what's there. A high profile reef is pretty easy to see. A flat
one isn't.

OK, why don't you get rid of the big ones?

If you're talking about the anchor, because it's what I need to hold my big
boat. If you mean the boat itself, because it's what I stay on, fish from
and dive from. I'm not sure my wife would agree to sleep on a kayak.

Can the government ever be that bad? They claim they treat everything
at Virginia Key...

Hugh already gave you the links.

http://www.reef-rescue.org/research/keywestcitizenpage1.pdf
http://www.reef-rescue.org/MiamiHerald/Oceanisnoplacefortreatedsewage.pdf

Here's their homepage; note the 'Donate' button:
http://www.reef-rescue.org/

Do you do kayaking by any chance, or you just represent the
motorboating association?

I have a kayak. I don't usually take it into the ocean. I sometimes take
it into the Gulf when I vacation in the Keys. I'm taking the boat down to
Lake Olita this weekend. Perhaps I'll see if the kayak will fit on the bow.
I'd kind of like to tour the waterway in the state park and they won't allow
my powered dinghy in there.

Apparently, you find it utterly incomprehensible for there to be
people who actually own both powered and unpowered watercraft,
particularly when their perspectives and conclusions are at odds with
yours.

Until recently, I had a rowboat and a sail boat too. As Hugh knows, I live
on a lake.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:37:15 -0400, "Lee Bell"
wrote:

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? What's a gas doc?

Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around. Presto, no
more gas slick.

Lee


gas Dock attendant, when you are paying 1200 dollars to fill up,
someone hands you the hose

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Not as much of an option as you'd think. You generally don't know your tank
is full until gas comes out of the overflow which, of course, is over the
water. Some gas is spilled more often than not. Gas evaporates pretty
quickly and such small amounts don't last long enough to be a significant
problem.

Lee

after 40 years you would think the installation of a sight glass would
occur to you. or simply dipping the tank and having a relatively good
idea of how much fuel you need, or a spill pan around the fill, or any
of the several other ways to stop overflow problems.

it only took me one fill to figure out a sight glass on the Terry L,
from that experiance every ship or boat I get on gets a deck visible
sight glass. saves me from those pesky $5,000 fines.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Rod wrote

gas Dock attendant, when you are paying 1200 dollars to fill up,
someone hands you the hose

My tanks don't get that empty, but they could. The weekend fuel bill was a
modest $341.00. They handed me the hose too.

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 14, 1:09*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's
not certain at all,

However, given the world in which we live, it's highly probable.

As a new boat owner whose future father in law is a past Power
Squadron District Commander, and usually within visual distance on his
own boat when I'm piloting mine with his daughter on board, I
scrupulously recite the rules of the road and how they apply to every
other boat I see out there - fewer than 10% follow them, and at least
another 10% demonstrate the sort of asinine contempt that can only be
explained by the choice described above. I never thought I'd find a
higher asshole density than I do on the roads, but the waterways have
exceeded my worst expectations.

"Against stupidiy, the gods themselves contend in vain" - Isaac Asimov

"My dear sir, 95% of EVERYTHING is crap" - Theodore Sturgeon

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's
not certain at all,

However, given the world in which we live, it's highly probable.

As a new boat owner whose future father in law is a past Power
Squadron District Commander, and usually within visual distance on his
own boat when I'm piloting mine with his daughter on board, I
scrupulously recite the rules of the road and how they apply to every
other boat I see out there - fewer than 10% follow them, and at least
another 10% demonstrate the sort of asinine contempt that can only be
explained by the choice described above. I never thought I'd find a
higher asshole density than I do on the roads, but the waterways have
exceeded my worst expectations.

10% is not highly probable. The assholes on the water here are not higher
density than those on the roads, but they don't have to be to be a problem.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Hey, I've thought this thread was dead... Yes, I assumed you
acknowledged that the Law of the Jungle was the law of the sea.

But it turns out someone mention bikes and I've got carried away, and
went to fight the land predators...

http://forums.miamibeach411.com/inde...hread/3039/P0/

But this philosophy of "big fish vs. little fish," I have learned
recently, carries over to where you can keep you kayak or motorboat.
This lady told me that the selective tenants of her upper scale condo
don't want kayaks there... but welcome yachts.

"NO BLACKS" have been changed to "NO BIKES, NO KAYAKS."

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

But this philosophy of "big fish vs. little fish," I have learned
recently, carries over to where you can keep you kayak or motorboat.
This lady told me that the selective tenants of her upper scale condo
don't want kayaks there... but welcome yachts.

Money talks. The managee protection plan for S. Florida includes limits on
boat slips, which is driving owners of larger boats to look for places to
keep them. This, in turn, is creating an opportunity for those with docks
to make a lot of money by providing those spaces. Kayaks don't generate
income. Yachts do. It's a fact of life.

Small kayaks can probably be stored inside a condo or apartment. Larger
ones can't. Anything that is stored in common areas, that does not generate
income, is going to be less welcome than things that do generate revenue.
Blame all the Yankees that moved here for the congestion or blame all the
refugees that came from the south and east. Just don't blame those of us
that were born here.

"NO BLACKS" have been changed to "NO BIKES, NO KAYAKS."

There have long been restrictions on motorcycles. Back 25 years ago, when I
lived in Jacksonville, I was required to keep my motorcycle out of sight.
Then I was required to keep it away from the building due to fire
regulations. Lucky for me, I had a ground floor apartment with a storage
room big enough to hold my bike. It was illegal, but out of sight was out
of mind.

By the way, you left trucks, boats on trailers, any kind of trailer, any
kind of motor home and vehicles with advertising on the side, all of which
are limited to one degree or another, by local laws and/or deed
restrictions. In my neighborhood, for example, which is not gated and is in
Davie, long considered Cracker territory, it is not legal to leave a trailer
of any kind where it can be seen from the street, it is not legal to park a
motor home in your driveway and it is not legal to have any vehicle with
advertising on it in your driveway on a permanent basis. Other communities
in the area go so far as to ban pickup trucks completely. It's a crazy
world.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Sep 3, 10:52*am, "Lee Bell" wrote:
But this philosophy of "big fish vs. little fish," I have learned
recently, carries over to where you can keep you kayak or motorboat.
This lady told me that the selective tenants of her upper scale condo
don't want kayaks there... but welcome yachts.

Money talks. *The managee protection plan for S. Florida includes limits on
boat slips, which is driving owners of larger boats to look for places to
keep them. *This, in turn, is creating an opportunity for those with docks
to make a lot of money by providing those spaces. *Kayaks don't generate
income. *Yachts do. *It's a fact of life.

Well, I don't see much of an argument here. The same thing happened to
me with a motorcycle. That reason being that the kickstand could make
a hole on the pavement, serious.

The signs may as well say, "Yachts and SUVs welcome, kayaks and bikes
are not."

I meant bicycles but it applies to both motorized and non motorized.

I go all the time into my girlfriend's hotel with a bicycle and I have
fun seeing the security guards follow me and ask me all kinds of
questions, "Chief, what are you doing here?" Then I tell them the
apartment number and they have to shut up. Today I got even. I went in
the back door, and when the guard thought he finally caught me
slipping in, I produced the key and said, "What's up chief?" ;)

He still followed me but only saw me taking my mail and walking out.
You know, the usual routine.

The moral of this story is that monkeys in bikes or kayaks are not
welcome everywhere.

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

I am a retired Coast Guard officer who has taught the COLREGS and Inland
Rules.

I suggest that all of you study and learn the Inland Rules of the Road.
These are available at:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm

In Part A, click on the "Inland" link and just progress through the rules
using the "Next Rule" link following the text.

If you are doing any open water crossings or are paddling in the area of
Block Island, Dry Tortugas, etc. you will also need to know the
International Rules.

This whole discussion has demonstrated the lack of knowledge the paddling
community has regarding the rules of our own hobby/avocation.

WCP
Oregon


On 8/14/08 8:25 AM, in article
,
"ComandanteBanana" wrote:

Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish...

The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF WAY TO
THE MOTORBOATS?

Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
(they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
call...

It wasn't a surprise for me though. The cigarette boats routinely roar
close to the beach to signal who the seas belong to. Hey, it belongs
to the big fish!

NOTE: The attendants of this West Marine store I went to to get a flag
for the kayak told me of the motorboats, "Hey be careful. They don't
care."

WELCOME TO BE JUNGLE
(beware of the big fish)
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION?
(the sardine revolution)
http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Sep 25, 10:22 am, "Patrick, Whit" wrote:
I am a retired Coast Guard officer who has taught the COLREGS and Inland
Rules.

I suggest that all of you study and learn the Inland Rules of the Road.
These are available at:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm

In Part A, click on the "Inland" link and just progress through the rules
using the "Next Rule" link following the text.

If you are doing any open water crossings or are paddling in the area of
Block Island, Dry Tortugas, etc. you will also need to know the
International Rules.

This whole discussion has demonstrated the lack of knowledge the paddling
community has regarding the rules of our own hobby/avocation.

WCP
Oregon

On 8/14/08 8:25 AM, in article
,

"ComandanteBanana" wrote:
Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish...

The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF WAY TO
THE MOTORBOATS?

Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
(they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
call...

It wasn't a surprise for me though. The cigarette boats routinely roar
close to the beach to signal who the seas belong to. Hey, it belongs
to the big fish!

NOTE: The attendants of this West Marine store I went to to get a flag
for the kayak told me of the motorboats, "Hey be careful. They don't
care."

WELCOME TO BE JUNGLE
(beware of the big fish)
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION?
(the sardine revolution)
http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

ya but then to yet again post the link to the the regs shows you
didn't read the whole thing.
so what do we take as true?