Jim,

Thanks for an excellent and thoughtful post.

I frequently work with systems that have multiple nested grounding system.
We try to reconcile the competing interests of UL safety requirements, FM
intrinsically safety requirements, analog measuring circuits trying to
resolve 0.1 microvolt out of 10 millivolts riding on a 2.5 v differential
load cell output (multiple summed load cells in the system), and the onboard
communication radio to carry the measurements to a central processing
system. Sometimes these systems are installed on electrically powered
material moving equipments so we have to contend with high drive currents
coming off the same battery where we get our power. These drive systems
typically have their own stringent grounding rules to keep the motor
controller alive. To top it all off, in high humidity environments, low
level contaminants add additional and unintended current paths. We have
developed a set of rules and methodology that works, but it is hard to
explain why we do some of the things we do without getting into a lot of
seemingly useless minutia.

I did a miserable job of relating a sub-set of the rules we have to follow
into the boating environment; you provided a much more useful description.

Mark Browne


"Jim Woodward" wrote in message
om...
Mark:

I don't like to be nit picking about teminology, but a lot of
electrical confusion can be avoided if we're consistent.

You don't need any ground in an electrical circuit. A plastic
flashlight is a simple example of something that doesn't have a
ground. The doorbell in your house is ungrounded even if supplied by
a transformer, the transformer isolates the doorbell wiring from the
ground. And so forth.

A "ground", or in British usage, an "earth", is just that, literally a
connection to the earth, which is a pretty good conductor because
there's lots of it.

So, strictly speaking, there isn't a ground unless there's a
connection to terra firma or the sea.

However, in many pieces of equipment -- autos and radios come to mind
as good examples -- one side of the power supply is attached to the
chassis. In auto and radio practice the chassis is used as the return
for all the current on that side (usually negative now, but positive
ground used to be common). Strictly speaking this is a "chassis
ground", not a "ground", but nobody's that strict.

On boats, there is usually a single point connection from ground to
the negative side of the DC supply and -- only when the supply is on
board, NOT with shore power -- the neutral side of the AC supply
(white wire in US practice). All current is through two wires, never
through the hull, mast, or anything else.

In the case of boats, many large vessels have ungrounded ("floating"
is the term of art) electrical systems. The engine starters, gauge
sensors, and alternators all have two wires going to them, both of
which are insulated from their metal bodies. Everything else is also
insulated and there are alarms to indicate ground faults -- a fault
connection from one side of a power supply to the hull. This is true
of both their DC systems and their AC, house supply, systems.

We're so used to engine starters being grounded on one side that we
forget that almost all electric motors except starters are insulated
from their metal cases -- insulated motors are the rule and automotive
starters are very much the exception.

(Now a little technical stuff) The reason that large vessels having
floating electrical systems is that it is easy to detect ground faults
when the system is floating. Ground faults are bad because, aside
from obvious safety issues, current will be conducted through the hull
leading to possible electro-chemical erosion. With a grounded system,
ground faults on the hot side are easy to detect -- a circuit breaker
blows. Ground faults on the other, neutral, side are very subtle and
hard to detect. You can detect them by careful measurements, but in a
marine environment careful measurements are almost impossible because
there's always a little leakage caused by moist salt air. So they just
sit there, conducting current, and damging the hull.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
. net...
"basskisser" wrote in message
m...
K Smith wrote in message
...
CCred68046 wrote:
I have seen this grounding questions with metal boats before and I
dont
understand what the issue is. If the boat has a motor I can
almost
guarentee
its grounded somewhere to the hull weather its inboard or
outboard.
Would
someone actually go through the trouble and expense to isolate the
electrical
system from the hull? That would take a lot to do!!

The debate is long & I'll stay out of it for now, however you are
mistaken Cred about "almost guaranteeing" engine electrics are
grounded,
indeed most proper marine engine electrics are not.

How can an electrical circuit be made if there isn't any ground?

It has one - It just does not use the engine or drive components to
provide
the current return path; a separate "ground" wire carries the juice
back.
Look up "ground loops" on google. This type of wiring allows effective
assaults on this nasty problem. If you are trying to eliminate radio
interference problems or reduce electrically induced corrosion problems,
this can make a lot of sense.

There have been a few times that I wished that automotive components
were
built this way.

Mark Browne

Thanks, Mark:

I think I have a good theoretical understanding of the issues. I have
some practical experience with electric systems on boats connected to
various shore systems around the world. You obviously have far more
practical experience.

So, I ask, what would you do with Fintry's grounds? Nothing from the
shore comes past the isloation transformers. Clearly the green wire is
grounded to the hull, no question there. On the DC side do we float
or ground the negatives? On the AC side, do we ground the neutral
(the center of the 240, as in common US single phase practice)?

Of course, when I say "ground", I mean at a single point, in so far as
it is possible. This would include insulating steel appliances from
the steel deck and taking other precautions against ground loops.

Issues:
On the DC side, I think I have everything isolated. It may be that
the engine starting circuits will be grounded negative, but the 24VDC
house loads can all be isolated.

Radios are always a question. I think the antenna ground on the SSB
is isolated from the negative power supply, but I'm not sure. If not,
the 12VDC system negative may have to be grounded to the hull, because
we certainly want the antenna counterpoise grounded (or can it be
capacitively coupled?)

On the AC side, I look at big ship practice and think that it makes a
lot of sense. Then I read of the dangers of floating systems and I
come back to earth, so to speak....

What would you do?




Details:

79', 150 ton steel hull and deckhouse, aluminum wheelhouse.

Five diesel prime movers:
New Cat 3406 main
Perkins 6-354 for hydraulics, pumps, alternator (old genset engine)
Two new Northern Lights 9kw 120/240VAC 60Hz 1ph gensets
Hatz single cylinder, rope start, for fire and bilge pump.

Four DC systems:

Engine starting -- one 24DC bank, isolated from everything else -- all
four engine alternators charge it while running. (Lest anyone worry
about single point failures, the 6-354 auxiliary has a spring
starter).

24VDC house system -- one big battery bank, charged by the Cat and the
Perkins (2x125A 24VDC Electrodyne brushless alternators on each
engine), as well as 240VDC universal chargers (paired for redundancy).
This system is mostly for boat operation -- electronics, nav lights.
This also drives two big inverters to power 120/240VAC house loads
while underway.

24VDC emergency system -- battery bank on upper deck, for spare nav
lights, electronics, emergency lights in the event of a main system
failure (fire in the engine room, etc.) Charged by battery charger and
by a diode off house system.

12VDC for radios -- You can't buy a VHF or SSB (except commercial
units at 4x prices) that runs off 24VDC, so we have to do both. I
love 24VDC, but hate the fact that as a practical matter, it means you
have to have both 12 and 24. Batteries on the upper deck (they're also
needed in emergency), charged by 240VAC charger. I chose this way,
because a 30A 24VDC-12VDC converter and spare for the SSB would be
more money and the 12VDC battery capacity would have to be there for
emergency use anyway.

120/240 VAC 1phase for hotel loads, major auxiliaries (pumps, air con,
etc.).

Isolation transformers on shore power. Whether shore power is 120 or
240, we'll use the transformers to create the usual US system --
hot-neutral-hot, 120/240.

In 50hz places we'll use 50hz wherever we can (lighting and air con,
for example) and supply 60hz from a universal battery charger taking
in 230VAC 50hz going to 24VDC back to 120/240 60hz. Except for bussing
both 50 and 60hz, the AC side is pretty conventional.



Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com



"Mark Browne" wrote in message . net...
Jim,

Thanks for an excellent and thoughtful post.

I frequently work with systems that have multiple nested grounding system.
We try to reconcile the competing interests of UL safety requirements, FM
intrinsically safety requirements, analog measuring circuits trying to
resolve 0.1 microvolt out of 10 millivolts riding on a 2.5 v differential
load cell output (multiple summed load cells in the system), and the onboard
communication radio to carry the measurements to a central processing
system. Sometimes these systems are installed on electrically powered
material moving equipments so we have to contend with high drive currents
coming off the same battery where we get our power. These drive systems
typically have their own stringent grounding rules to keep the motor
controller alive. To top it all off, in high humidity environments, low
level contaminants add additional and unintended current paths. We have
developed a set of rules and methodology that works, but it is hard to
explain why we do some of the things we do without getting into a lot of
seemingly useless minutia.

I did a miserable job of relating a sub-set of the rules we have to follow
into the boating environment; you provided a much more useful description.

Mark Browne

I could give some off-the-cuff comments on marine wiring, but a proper
answer could easily run to several pages. Fortunately, this topic has
already been explored extensively by many writers. I will defer to these
writings.

Here is one of my very favorite links (simple and fairly complete) on marine
wiring:
http://www.sailmail.com/grounds.htm

This page is one of the best compendiums of boating electronics you are
likely to find. It offers advise on proper marine grounding. I would
recommend printing the entire thing out and reading it a few times as a
practical starting point for any anyone starting out working one their own
marine wiring systems.
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietri...lectrical.html

The communications world has spent a great deal of time and energy trying to
shield communications systems to prevent a "black hat" from learning what is
happening inside a computer. The buzzword here is "Tempest". One of the keys
is effective shielding and grounding schemes. If your system is designed to
tempest standards, you can be reasonably certain that it in well shielded
and grounded. See this page for a good tutorial and links. Pay particular
attention to the links to mil-handbooks on grounding.
http://www.tscm.com/TSCM101tempest.html

Radio interference, that darn buzz coming out the speaker, can be one of the
most maddening and difficult problems to cure. The rules for radio shielding
a and grounding are way beyond magic. A tiny gap a few inches long look like
a gaping hole in a case. A dead short in a stub cable can flood an entire
system with standing waves. Changing the length of a bonding strap a few
inches can make it entirely useless in RF grounding situations. This stuff
can be sorted out if you are a skilled electronics engineer. (I am) Failing
this, adherence to good practice and a little experimentation can often
produce acceptable results. Leaning what sort of things to try and what has
worked for others is a good staring place for the beginner. Kimmel and Gerke
are consultants that help people cure difficult interference problems. My
company has retained their services on particularly difficult problems. I
find their "bullets" to be a valuable resource.
http://www.emiguru.com/kgb/kgblist.htm

Do you have any favorite reference(s) on marine electronics?

Mark Browne


"Jim Woodward" wrote in message
om...
Thanks, Mark:

I think I have a good theoretical understanding of the issues. I have
some practical experience with electric systems on boats connected to
various shore systems around the world. You obviously have far more
practical experience.

So, I ask, what would you do with Fintry's grounds? Nothing from the
shore comes past the isloation transformers. Clearly the green wire is
grounded to the hull, no question there. On the DC side do we float
or ground the negatives? On the AC side, do we ground the neutral
(the center of the 240, as in common US single phase practice)?

Of course, when I say "ground", I mean at a single point, in so far as
it is possible. This would include insulating steel appliances from
the steel deck and taking other precautions against ground loops.

Issues:
On the DC side, I think I have everything isolated. It may be that
the engine starting circuits will be grounded negative, but the 24VDC
house loads can all be isolated.

Radios are always a question. I think the antenna ground on the SSB
is isolated from the negative power supply, but I'm not sure. If not,
the 12VDC system negative may have to be grounded to the hull, because
we certainly want the antenna counterpoise grounded (or can it be
capacitively coupled?)

On the AC side, I look at big ship practice and think that it makes a
lot of sense. Then I read of the dangers of floating systems and I
come back to earth, so to speak....

What would you do?




Details:

79', 150 ton steel hull and deckhouse, aluminum wheelhouse.

Five diesel prime movers:
New Cat 3406 main
Perkins 6-354 for hydraulics, pumps, alternator (old genset engine)
Two new Northern Lights 9kw 120/240VAC 60Hz 1ph gensets
Hatz single cylinder, rope start, for fire and bilge pump.

Four DC systems:

Engine starting -- one 24DC bank, isolated from everything else -- all
four engine alternators charge it while running. (Lest anyone worry
about single point failures, the 6-354 auxiliary has a spring
starter).

24VDC house system -- one big battery bank, charged by the Cat and the
Perkins (2x125A 24VDC Electrodyne brushless alternators on each
engine), as well as 240VDC universal chargers (paired for redundancy).
This system is mostly for boat operation -- electronics, nav lights.
This also drives two big inverters to power 120/240VAC house loads
while underway.

24VDC emergency system -- battery bank on upper deck, for spare nav
lights, electronics, emergency lights in the event of a main system
failure (fire in the engine room, etc.) Charged by battery charger and
by a diode off house system.

12VDC for radios -- You can't buy a VHF or SSB (except commercial
units at 4x prices) that runs off 24VDC, so we have to do both. I
love 24VDC, but hate the fact that as a practical matter, it means you
have to have both 12 and 24. Batteries on the upper deck (they're also
needed in emergency), charged by 240VAC charger. I chose this way,
because a 30A 24VDC-12VDC converter and spare for the SSB would be
more money and the 12VDC battery capacity would have to be there for
emergency use anyway.

120/240 VAC 1phase for hotel loads, major auxiliaries (pumps, air con,
etc.).

Isolation transformers on shore power. Whether shore power is 120 or
240, we'll use the transformers to create the usual US system --
hot-neutral-hot, 120/240.

In 50hz places we'll use 50hz wherever we can (lighting and air con,
for example) and supply 60hz from a universal battery charger taking
in 230VAC 50hz going to 24VDC back to 120/240 60hz. Except for bussing
both 50 and 60hz, the AC side is pretty conventional.



Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com



"Mark Browne" wrote in message
. net...
Jim,

Thanks for an excellent and thoughtful post.

I frequently work with systems that have multiple nested grounding
system.
We try to reconcile the competing interests of UL safety requirements,
FM
intrinsically safety requirements, analog measuring circuits trying to
resolve 0.1 microvolt out of 10 millivolts riding on a 2.5 v
differential
load cell output (multiple summed load cells in the system), and the
onboard
communication radio to carry the measurements to a central processing
system. Sometimes these systems are installed on electrically powered
material moving equipments so we have to contend with high drive
currents
coming off the same battery where we get our power. These drive systems
typically have their own stringent grounding rules to keep the motor
controller alive. To top it all off, in high humidity environments, low
level contaminants add additional and unintended current paths. We have
developed a set of rules and methodology that works, but it is hard to
explain why we do some of the things we do without getting into a lot of
seemingly useless minutia.

I did a miserable job of relating a sub-set of the rules we have to
follow
into the boating environment; you provided a much more useful
description.

Mark Browne

"Mark Browne" wrote...
trimmed
http://www.sailmail.com/grounds.htm
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietri...lectrical.html
http://www.tscm.com/TSCM101tempest.html
http://www.emiguru.com/kgb/kgblist.htm

good resources, thanks Mark.

-rick-

Thanks, Mark:

I think I have a good theoretical understanding of the issues. I have
some practical experience with electric systems on boats connected to
various shore systems around the world. You obviously have far more
practical experience.

So, I ask, what would you do with Fintry's grounds? Nothing from the
shore comes past the isloation transformers. Clearly the green wire is
grounded to the hull, no question there. On the DC side do we float
or ground the negatives? On the AC side, do we ground the neutral
(the center of the 240, as in common US single phase practice)?

Of course, when I say "ground", I mean at a single point, in so far as
it is possible. This would include insulating steel appliances from
the steel deck and taking other precautions against ground loops.

Issues:
On the DC side, I think I have everything isolated. It may be that
the engine starting circuits will be grounded negative, but the 24VDC
house loads can all be isolated.

Radios are always a question. I think the antenna ground on the SSB
is isolated from the negative power supply, but I'm not sure. If not,
the 12VDC system negative may have to be grounded to the hull, because
we certainly want the antenna counterpoise grounded (or can it be
capacitively coupled?)

On the AC side, I look at big ship practice and think that it makes a
lot of sense. Then I read of the dangers of floating systems and I
come back to earth, so to speak....

What would you do?




Details:

79', 150 ton steel hull and deckhouse, aluminum wheelhouse.

Five diesel prime movers:
New Cat 3406 main
Perkins 6-354 for hydraulics, pumps, alternator (old genset engine)
Two new Northern Lights 9kw 120/240VAC 60Hz 1ph gensets
Hatz single cylinder, rope start, for fire and bilge pump.

Four DC systems:

Engine starting -- one 24DC bank, isolated from everything else -- all
four engine alternators charge it while running. (Lest anyone worry
about single point failures, the 6-354 auxiliary has a spring
starter).

24VDC house system -- one big battery bank, charged by the Cat and the
Perkins (2x125A 24VDC Electrodyne brushless alternators on each
engine), as well as 240VDC universal chargers (paired for redundancy).
This system is mostly for boat operation -- electronics, nav lights.
This also drives two big inverters to power 120/240VAC house loads
while underway.

24VDC emergency system -- battery bank on upper deck, for spare nav
lights, electronics, emergency lights in the event of a main system
failure (fire in the engine room, etc.) Charged by battery charger and
by a diode off house system.

12VDC for radios -- You can't buy a VHF or SSB (except commercial
units at 4x prices) that runs off 24VDC, so we have to do both. I
love 24VDC, but hate the fact that as a practical matter, it means you
have to have both 12 and 24. Batteries on the upper deck (they're also
needed in emergency), charged by 240VAC charger. I chose this way,
because a 30A 24VDC-12VDC converter and spare for the SSB would be
more money and the 12VDC battery capacity would have to be there for
emergency use anyway.

120/240 VAC 1phase for hotel loads, major auxiliaries (pumps, air con,
etc.).

Isolation transformers on shore power. Whether shore power is 120 or
240, we'll use the transformers to create the usual US system --
hot-neutral-hot, 120/240.

In 50hz places we'll use 50hz wherever we can (lighting and air con,
for example) and supply 60hz from a universal battery charger taking
in 230VAC 50hz going to 24VDC back to 120/240 60hz. Except for bussing
both 50 and 60hz, the AC side is pretty conventional.



Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com



"Mark Browne" wrote in message . net...
Jim,

Thanks for an excellent and thoughtful post.

I frequently work with systems that have multiple nested grounding system.
We try to reconcile the competing interests of UL safety requirements, FM
intrinsically safety requirements, analog measuring circuits trying to
resolve 0.1 microvolt out of 10 millivolts riding on a 2.5 v differential
load cell output (multiple summed load cells in the system), and the onboard
communication radio to carry the measurements to a central processing
system. Sometimes these systems are installed on electrically powered
material moving equipments so we have to contend with high drive currents
coming off the same battery where we get our power. These drive systems
typically have their own stringent grounding rules to keep the motor
controller alive. To top it all off, in high humidity environments, low
level contaminants add additional and unintended current paths. We have
developed a set of rules and methodology that works, but it is hard to
explain why we do some of the things we do without getting into a lot of
seemingly useless minutia.

I did a miserable job of relating a sub-set of the rules we have to follow
into the boating environment; you provided a much more useful description.

Mark Browne