|
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
I'm interested in changing the main on my utility boat to something
around 70hp, probably an oil-injected 2-stroke although I've not completely ruled out 4-stroke. I've been wresting with using the 60hp E-Tec or the 70hp Yamaha. As you probably know, the Yamaha uses old-school carburetion. My local Evinrude dealer is naturally badmouthing carburetion, claiming that today's bad gas (read as 10%-15% ethanol, along with sediments) creates frequent trouble for carbureted engines, making the the old- school 70hp Yamaha inferior. Like me, do you say "hooey" (or something stronger) to that?? I doubt there is more sediment in gas today than in the past (suddenly making carburetion "inferior"). I don't remember carburetion giving me fits of trouble when I used to own them. Admitting that my wrench turning skills are limited, I cannot imagine why injection technology handles fuel sediments any better, for that matter, but I'd grant that efi is easier on fuel and would choose efi in the Yami 2-stroke if offered as an option. It looks simply like Yamaha offers the largest hp (consistent with my mfg's recommended max hp) for the lightest total weight. Save me from making a mistake! As noted on an earlier thread, why my stone age 2-stroke preference? Beyond weight savings it's that I already have a 4-stroke kicker. The main is just for getting around and, as the kids grow up, pulling a tube. Although a near second choice, the sometimes-reported midrange troubles with E-Tecs make me a little nervous. I can't really tell from postings on various boards if Evinrude has completely dealt with the problem--even after having years to do so. Since this is a relatively light weight aluminum utility (925# dry) I'm pretty sensitive to keep engine weight to a minimum. Chunky Hondas (4-stroke anyway) and the 75hp Optimax are out. Your carburetion/efi thoughts appreciated. John |
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT), JohnDeere
wrote: Your carburetion/efi thoughts appreciated. Sediments aren't the issue between carbs and EFI. Fuel filter maintenance should take care of that. Computer controlled efficiency and ease of maintenance are what's important to me. I've replaced/rebuilt a number of carbs and only a few injectors, which are cheaper than carbs. I'm talking cars but there's no basic difference in the fuel feeds. Don't know the cost of OB injectors or their reliability compared to auto. Injectors do require a high pressure pump and regulator, which are more prone to failure than a low pressure fuel pump. My main beef with carbs is they aren't as efficient milage wise, and they can be flaky and are harder to diagnose than an injector system. One thing I've noted is the main problem seen in the Honda 50 hp is clogged carb jets. Now, the boaters here with extensive OB experience can weigh in. --Vic |
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
"JohnDeere" wrote in message ... Your carburetion/efi thoughts appreciated. John Carburators are clever devices that work amazingly well when you consider the wide range of operating conditions, temperatures, gas flow rates, air/gas mixture requirements, etc. that they are required to operate in. EFI does all the above much better. Eisboch |
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT), JohnDeere
wrote: I'm interested in changing the main on my utility boat to something around 70hp, probably an oil-injected 2-stroke although I've not completely ruled out 4-stroke. I've been wresting with using the 60hp E-Tec or the 70hp Yamaha. As you probably know, the Yamaha uses old-school carburetion. My local Evinrude dealer is naturally badmouthing carburetion, claiming that today's bad gas (read as 10%-15% ethanol, along with sediments) creates frequent trouble for carbureted engines, making the the old- school 70hp Yamaha inferior. Fist off - If your local dealer is bad mouthing carburetion, then he's a moron. Find another ETEC dealer. Secondly, yes - the direct injection system handles the goop and crap a little better than carbs do, but by now, most of the goop and crap has been filtered out of the supply system and the 10/15% ethanol gas you are getting is fairly clean. The station filters and the filters on the engines can handle anything that is left over. The fact of the matter is that while I kid Harry and Gene about "inferior ancient technology" (it has been around since - well, forever), improvements in computer controlled management make the new engines efficient in comparison to the older engines. Where ETEC has the advantage is that the technology is different - it's two stroke using direct cylinder injection with a massive dose of computer fuel management which takes into account a whole host of factors in computing the most efficient fuel use. On my engine, as an example, it's a 90 degree block, different gearing and I still manage to get some really outstanding fuel efficiency. Guys with the 60 degree block in the same engine do even better than I do. It's really a question of what you are comfortable with. I started with FICHT right out of the box and wasn't disappointed. I repowered with the ETEC and haven't been disappointed. Like me, do you say "hooey" (or something stronger) to that?? I doubt there is more sediment in gas today than in the past (suddenly making carburetion "inferior"). I don't remember carburetion giving me fits of trouble when I used to own them. Admitting that my wrench turning skills are limited, I cannot imagine why injection technology handles fuel sediments any better, for that matter, but I'd grant that efi is easier on fuel and would choose efi in the Yami 2-stroke if offered as an option. It looks simply like Yamaha offers the largest hp (consistent with my mfg's recommended max hp) for the lightest total weight. There is a difference between Electronic Fuel Injection and Direct Injection. EFI injects fuel at the intake valve, Direct Injection injects fuel into the cylinder. Just so that you know. My ETEC is very efficient and averages (WOT to idle on an average run) 3.5 to 3.67 gallons/hr. That's a 200 hp HO pushing a 20 foot Ranger bay boat. The ETEC 60 inline twin weighs 240 pounds, the Yamaha 60 237 pounds. You aren't saving much in terms of weight. The simple truth is this - you get amazing amounts of quiet power at a very efficient burn rate with ETEC. A 60 ETEC on that boat, as you describe it, will out perform a 60 or 75 four stroke any day of the week. Guarenteed. Although a near second choice, the sometimes-reported midrange troubles with E-Tecs make me a little nervous. I can't really tell from postings on various boards if Evinrude has completely dealt with the problem--even after having years to do so. Since this is a relatively light weight aluminum utility (925# dry) I'm pretty sensitive to keep engine weight to a minimum. Chunky Hondas (4-stroke anyway) and the 75hp Optimax are out. I'm not sure what you are talking about with "problems". I'm fairly well plugged into things and I don't know of any mid-range problems with ETEC. Care to explain? |
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
On Jul 15, 11:58 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT), JohnDeere wrote: I'm interested in changing the main on my utility boat to something around 70hp, probably an oil-injected 2-stroke although I've not completely ruled out 4-stroke. I've been wresting with using the 60hp E-Tec or the 70hp Yamaha. As you probably know, the Yamaha uses old-school carburetion. My local Evinrude dealer is naturally badmouthing carburetion, claiming that today's bad gas (read as 10%-15% ethanol, along with sediments) creates frequent trouble for carbureted engines, making the the old- school 70hp Yamaha inferior. Fist off - If your local dealer is bad mouthing carburetion, then he's a moron. Find another ETEC dealer. Secondly, yes - the direct injection system handles the goop and crap a little better than carbs do, but by now, most of the goop and crap has been filtered out of the supply system and the 10/15% ethanol gas you are getting is fairly clean. The station filters and the filters on the engines can handle anything that is left over. The fact of the matter is that while I kid Harry and Gene about "inferior ancient technology" (it has been around since - well, forever), improvements in computer controlled management make the new engines efficient in comparison to the older engines. Where ETEC has the advantage is that the technology is different - it's two stroke using direct cylinder injection with a massive dose of computer fuel management which takes into account a whole host of factors in computing the most efficient fuel use. On my engine, as an example, it's a 90 degree block, different gearing and I still manage to get some really outstanding fuel efficiency. Guys with the 60 degree block in the same engine do even better than I do. It's really a question of what you are comfortable with. I started with FICHT right out of the box and wasn't disappointed. I repowered with the ETEC and haven't been disappointed. Like me, do you say "hooey" (or something stronger) to that?? I doubt there is more sediment in gas today than in the past (suddenly making carburetion "inferior"). I don't remember carburetion giving me fits of trouble when I used to own them. Admitting that my wrench turning skills are limited, I cannot imagine why injection technology handles fuel sediments any better, for that matter, but I'd grant that efi is easier on fuel and would choose efi in the Yami 2-stroke if offered as an option. It looks simply like Yamaha offers the largest hp (consistent with my mfg's recommended max hp) for the lightest total weight. There is a difference between Electronic Fuel Injection and Direct Injection. EFI injects fuel at the intake valve, Direct Injection injects fuel into the cylinder. Just so that you know. My ETEC is very efficient and averages (WOT to idle on an average run) 3.5 to 3.67 gallons/hr. That's a 200 hp HO pushing a 20 foot Ranger bay boat. The ETEC 60 inline twin weighs 240 pounds, the Yamaha 60 237 pounds. You aren't saving much in terms of weight. The simple truth is this - you get amazing amounts of quiet power at a very efficient burn rate with ETEC. A 60 ETEC on that boat, as you describe it, will out perform a 60 or 75 four stroke any day of the week. Guarenteed. Although a near second choice, the sometimes-reported midrange troubles with E-Tecs make me a little nervous. I can't really tell from postings on various boards if Evinrude has completely dealt with the problem--even after having years to do so. Since this is a relatively light weight aluminum utility (925# dry) I'm pretty sensitive to keep engine weight to a minimum. Chunky Hondas (4-stroke anyway) and the 75hp Optimax are out. I'm not sure what you are talking about with "problems". I'm fairly well plugged into things and I don't know of any mid-range problems with ETEC. Care to explain? I frankly haven't made an effort to catalog complaints, so it will be hard to answer your question. I've simply spent some time probing Google with terms like "Yamaha trouble", "ETEC trouble", etc.; even this board has plenty of ETEC chatter. Everyting mechanical has some rate of failure. There seems to be a recurring "mid-RPM" type of complaint involving ETEC owners. Impossible to say whether my casual reading was statistically significant. Doubt it. Shame they don't make a 70 ETEC on the same (light) powerhead. I appreciate your help. Pretty impressive fuel economy on your 200. |
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT), JohnDeere
wrote: The ETEC 60 inline twin weighs 240 pounds, the Yamaha 60 237 pounds. You aren't saving much in terms of weight. The simple truth is this - you get amazing amounts of quiet power at a very efficient burn rate with ETEC. A 60 ETEC on that boat, as you describe it, will out perform a 60 or 75 four stroke any day of the week. Guarenteed. Although a near second choice, the sometimes-reported midrange troubles with E-Tecs make me a little nervous. I can't really tell from postings on various boards if Evinrude has completely dealt with Ah - ahem... There is a difference between E-TECs. There is a high performance ETEC auto cylinder head and engine made by Edelbrock http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...etec_435.shtml and the E-TEC outboard engine made by Evinrude. http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/ The reported problems with mid-range RPM performance involve the Edelbrock E-TEC heads/engines not the Evinrude ETEC outboards. Two completely different animals. :) |
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
"JohnDeere" wrote in message ... I'm interested in changing the main on my utility boat to something around 70hp, probably an oil-injected 2-stroke although I've not completely ruled out 4-stroke. I've been wresting with using the 60hp E-Tec or the 70hp Yamaha. As you probably know, the Yamaha uses old-school carburetion. The carburetors are not problematic unless the boat sits for more than a month or so and varnish forms inside the passageways. Today's fuels gum up fairly quickly unless you use a fuel stabilizer constantly. If you are thinking of the E-TEC, the 3 cyl. 75hp is a sweetheart, and it's very powerful for its size and super quiet. It tolerates ethanol fuels better than most motors and is a big seller in Brazil where they run 22% ethanol (depending on their goverment's whims). The 60 is a strong motor, but it's 2 cylinder and not as smooth as a 3 banger. About the rough running you mentioned, that was taken care of 2 years ago with a software change to allow throttle position adjustment just like the 2007 models had. For 2008, they changed the injector plunger and ignition system for even smoother drivability. Most of the earlier comments anyway were due to not propping the motor correctly plus some had been operating too cool, making them run rich. Bill Grannis service manager |
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
|
Outboards: carburetion v. efi (an E-Tec myth?)
Normally I would advise to go for an E-tec OB; electronics are currently very
reliable, and fuel economy is of some importance. There is however one situation that could make a difference; when you have to operate your OB for prolonged periods of time far from the civilised world (and the diagnostics and spare parts that come with it), I would always go for the carb-version. With moderate tools and knowledge a carb-version can always be forced into some kind of functionality, while for the E-tec dead is dead. Mees de Roo |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:19 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com