On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:14:31 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:44:16 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


Give me 3 examples of institutional speculators, please.

There's lots on the web about futures markets.
I'm not sure why you're bitching about commodities futures, which
spot markets always bring quickly to reality.
It's the equities markets - Wall Street - that has weakened the
dollar, and the U.S.
If you seriously think that the equity market caps of many companies
are more real than a commodity futures price, try liquidating the
shares of a large corporation for actual cash and see what it brings.
Wall Street is more of a fantasy than any commodity futures market.
Most equities just doesn't reach the real spot market - not yet
anyway.
Any return on Wall Street equities beyond paid dividends is the result
of speculative forces, and nothing else.
Gambling is gambling. Poker, craps, horses, equities, futures, real
estate. Your pick.

--Vic

If a bunch of fools bid up the price of a stock to a level that's absurd,
you (and I mean specifically YOU) do not have to buy that stock at that
price.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:14:31 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:44:16 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


Give me 3 examples of institutional speculators, please.

There's lots on the web about futures markets.
I'm not sure why you're bitching about commodities futures, which
spot markets always bring quickly to reality.
It's the equities markets - Wall Street - that has weakened the
dollar, and the U.S.
If you seriously think that the equity market caps of many companies
are more real than a commodity futures price, try liquidating the
shares of a large corporation for actual cash and see what it brings.
Wall Street is more of a fantasy than any commodity futures market.
Most equities just doesn't reach the real spot market - not yet
anyway.
Any return on Wall Street equities beyond paid dividends is the result
of speculative forces, and nothing else.
Gambling is gambling. Poker, craps, horses, equities, futures, real
estate. Your pick.

--Vic

If a bunch of fools bid up the price of a stock to a level that's absurd,
you (and I mean specifically YOU) do not have to buy that stock at that
price.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

If a bunch of fools bid up the price of oil to a level that's disconnected
from the physical reality of the supply chain, you (and I mean specifically
YOU) do NOT have to buy higher priced gasoline as a result of the games
played by the fools.

Do you agree with that statement?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:54:51 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:14:31 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:44:16 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


Give me 3 examples of institutional speculators, please.

There's lots on the web about futures markets.
I'm not sure why you're bitching about commodities futures, which
spot markets always bring quickly to reality.
It's the equities markets - Wall Street - that has weakened the
dollar, and the U.S.
If you seriously think that the equity market caps of many companies
are more real than a commodity futures price, try liquidating the
shares of a large corporation for actual cash and see what it brings.
Wall Street is more of a fantasy than any commodity futures market.
Most equities just doesn't reach the real spot market - not yet
anyway.
Any return on Wall Street equities beyond paid dividends is the result
of speculative forces, and nothing else.
Gambling is gambling. Poker, craps, horses, equities, futures, real
estate. Your pick.

--Vic

If a bunch of fools bid up the price of a stock to a level that's absurd,
you (and I mean specifically YOU) do not have to buy that stock at that
price.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

If a bunch of fools bid up the price of oil to a level that's disconnected
from the physical reality of the supply chain, you (and I mean specifically
YOU) do NOT have to buy higher priced gasoline as a result of the games
played by the fools.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:54:51 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:14:31 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
m...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:44:16 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


Give me 3 examples of institutional speculators, please.

There's lots on the web about futures markets.
I'm not sure why you're bitching about commodities futures, which
spot markets always bring quickly to reality.
It's the equities markets - Wall Street - that has weakened the
dollar, and the U.S.
If you seriously think that the equity market caps of many companies
are more real than a commodity futures price, try liquidating the
shares of a large corporation for actual cash and see what it brings.
Wall Street is more of a fantasy than any commodity futures market.
Most equities just doesn't reach the real spot market - not yet
anyway.
Any return on Wall Street equities beyond paid dividends is the result
of speculative forces, and nothing else.
Gambling is gambling. Poker, craps, horses, equities, futures, real
estate. Your pick.

--Vic

If a bunch of fools bid up the price of a stock to a level that's
absurd,
you (and I mean specifically YOU) do not have to buy that stock at that
price.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

If a bunch of fools bid up the price of oil to a level that's disconnected
from the physical reality of the supply chain, you (and I mean
specifically
YOU) do NOT have to buy higher priced gasoline as a result of the games
played by the fools.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

Then, you either work at home or have excellent mass transportation, because
millions of people have no choice but to buy gasoline at whatever price it's
being sold for. Unlike other products, there is no competition.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:03:22 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:



If a bunch of fools bid up the price of oil to a level that's disconnected
from the physical reality of the supply chain, you (and I mean
specifically
YOU) do NOT have to buy higher priced gasoline as a result of the games
played by the fools.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

Then, you either work at home or have excellent mass transportation, because
millions of people have no choice but to buy gasoline at whatever price it's
being sold for. Unlike other products, there is no competition.

Actually, I'm retired. Or I could have said my wife or one of the
kids buy gas for me. But you did say YOU.
Why are you willing to gamble on stocks, but not willing to gamble on
oil? Do you need gas? Or paper Citibank stock certificates?
Just curious.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:03:22 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:



If a bunch of fools bid up the price of oil to a level that's
disconnected
from the physical reality of the supply chain, you (and I mean
specifically
YOU) do NOT have to buy higher priced gasoline as a result of the games
played by the fools.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

Then, you either work at home or have excellent mass transportation,
because
millions of people have no choice but to buy gasoline at whatever price
it's
being sold for. Unlike other products, there is no competition.

Actually, I'm retired. Or I could have said my wife or one of the
kids buy gas for me. But you did say YOU.
Why are you willing to gamble on stocks, but not willing to gamble on
oil? Do you need gas? Or paper Citibank stock certificates?
Just curious.

--Vic

You already answered your own question, Vic. One investment (stocks) doesn't
affect you, or anyone else. I suppose you could say that if Warren Buffet
buys a ****load of a certain stock, it becomes news, the stock goes up, and
that might help you if you also own that stock. But, you didn't have to buy
that stock or that mutual fund in order to get to work or heat your home.

You can't say the same for oil. Gamblers fiddle with the price, and it
affects millions of people who have no choice but to buy fuel. That is why
oil is unique among investments and comparing it to stocks is stupid.

If gamblers want to play with oil, let them do it at OTB, and disconnect it
from the industry.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:22:24 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:03:22 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:



If a bunch of fools bid up the price of oil to a level that's
disconnected
from the physical reality of the supply chain, you (and I mean
specifically
YOU) do NOT have to buy higher priced gasoline as a result of the games
played by the fools.

Do you agree with that statement?

Yes.

--Vic

Then, you either work at home or have excellent mass transportation,
because
millions of people have no choice but to buy gasoline at whatever price
it's
being sold for. Unlike other products, there is no competition.

Actually, I'm retired. Or I could have said my wife or one of the
kids buy gas for me. But you did say YOU.
Why are you willing to gamble on stocks, but not willing to gamble on
oil? Do you need gas? Or paper Citibank stock certificates?
Just curious.

--Vic

You already answered your own question, Vic. One investment (stocks) doesn't
affect you, or anyone else. I suppose you could say that if Warren Buffet
buys a ****load of a certain stock, it becomes news, the stock goes up, and
that might help you if you also own that stock. But, you didn't have to buy
that stock or that mutual fund in order to get to work or heat your home.

You can't say the same for oil. Gamblers fiddle with the price, and it
affects millions of people who have no choice but to buy fuel. That is why
oil is unique among investments and comparing it to stocks is stupid.

If gamblers want to play with oil, let them do it at OTB, and disconnect it
from the industry.

You might get an argument from many, many Americans that the purchase
of stock for speculative purposes doesn't affect millions of Americans
in a negative way.
I would be one of them arguing such.
You may think that supporting companies whose only interest is the
bottom line, even if it means the exportation of American jobs and the
destruction of American industry, or the inflation of real estate
prices and escalation of personal bankruptcy is good for you because
you may make some bucks from such speculation.
And I may think it is perfectly fine to make some bucks speculating on
the price of oil.
Which buck is clean?

--Vic