"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Tim" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 10, 9:49 pm, " JimH" ask wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

JimH wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
m...
...gasoline was $1.46 a gallon.

And the highest gasoline prices were under the leadership of Carter.

And your point is?

Just another data point with which to bury Republicans next year.

Explain how the "Republicans" caused the increase in gasoline prices.

Why would gasoline prices be different today if a Democrat were in
office?

Well I'm not worried about it. Pres. Hillary Obama will get it right
back down to a "buck forty-nine" in just six months, and will have
exec. reps on a rope just like a stringer fll of blue gills.

Nobody will get the price down until we eliminate oil speculation by
investors who have absolutely no connection with the oil business.

Most of the increases in gasoline prices for the last year are due to the
devaluation of the greenback, not in any real way has the value of a barrel
of oil changed.

It is opposite thinking from what politicians preach. A paper currency is
just like stock. It goes up when people want it, and down when people don't
want it. Just like commodities, currency fluxuates in value.

If the US fed raised interest rates and tightened up the money supply the
dollar would have more value. Does not congress work with the Fed on such
maters?

Combine this with sub-prime mortgages and asset backed paper liquidity
problems....

It is more accurate to think of the barrel of oil value being constant and
the currency has lost value. If you had 100% of your investments in a
stable currency last year, they would have gone up 20% against the USD not
including interest.

Blame government monetary policy.

"Canuck57" wrote in message
news:EzEZi.200735$1y4.155047@pd7urf2no...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Tim" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 10, 9:49 pm, " JimH" ask wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

JimH wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
m...
...gasoline was $1.46 a gallon.

And the highest gasoline prices were under the leadership of Carter.

And your point is?

Just another data point with which to bury Republicans next year.

Explain how the "Republicans" caused the increase in gasoline prices.

Why would gasoline prices be different today if a Democrat were in
office?

Well I'm not worried about it. Pres. Hillary Obama will get it right
back down to a "buck forty-nine" in just six months, and will have
exec. reps on a rope just like a stringer fll of blue gills.

Nobody will get the price down until we eliminate oil speculation by
investors who have absolutely no connection with the oil business.

Most of the increases in gasoline prices for the last year are due to the
devaluation of the greenback, not in any real way has the value of a
barrel of oil changed.

It is opposite thinking from what politicians preach. A paper currency is
just like stock. It goes up when people want it, and down when people
don't want it. Just like commodities, currency fluxuates in value.

If the US fed raised interest rates and tightened up the money supply the
dollar would have more value. Does not congress work with the Fed on such
maters?

Combine this with sub-prime mortgages and asset backed paper liquidity
problems....

It is more accurate to think of the barrel of oil value being constant and
the currency has lost value. If you had 100% of your investments in a
stable currency last year, they would have gone up 20% against the USD not
including interest.

Blame government monetary policy.


All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal, go
to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
news
"Canuck57" wrote in message
news:EzEZi.200735$1y4.155047@pd7urf2no...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Tim" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 10, 9:49 pm, " JimH" ask wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

JimH wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
m...
...gasoline was $1.46 a gallon.

And the highest gasoline prices were under the leadership of
Carter.

And your point is?

Just another data point with which to bury Republicans next year.

Explain how the "Republicans" caused the increase in gasoline prices.

Why would gasoline prices be different today if a Democrat were in
office?

Well I'm not worried about it. Pres. Hillary Obama will get it right
back down to a "buck forty-nine" in just six months, and will have
exec. reps on a rope just like a stringer fll of blue gills.

Nobody will get the price down until we eliminate oil speculation by
investors who have absolutely no connection with the oil business.

Most of the increases in gasoline prices for the last year are due to the
devaluation of the greenback, not in any real way has the value of a
barrel of oil changed.

It is opposite thinking from what politicians preach. A paper currency
is just like stock. It goes up when people want it, and down when people
don't want it. Just like commodities, currency fluxuates in value.

If the US fed raised interest rates and tightened up the money supply the
dollar would have more value. Does not congress work with the Fed on
such maters?

Combine this with sub-prime mortgages and asset backed paper liquidity
problems....

It is more accurate to think of the barrel of oil value being constant
and the currency has lost value. If you had 100% of your investments in
a stable currency last year, they would have gone up 20% against the USD
not including interest.

Blame government monetary policy.


All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal, go
to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

It is easy then other than how do I carry a $100 barrel of oil around? That
is peg the currency to 1 exact barrel of oil and not the Fed's or
Congressional view of it. But for this to work, if I tender $100 you have
to give me my exact 1 barrel of oil. Something the government and the fed
will not do. That is, back the currency in real constant value.

I knew when Greenspan retired the greed of Fed/banks would in time screw it
up. My bet paid off handsomely. One must look at paper currency as stock
that generally devaluates due to government over spending and big banking
policies.

Oil is just like black gold. Gold too has the same curve against the USD.
So has copper. I don't follow silver but suspect it to has too. Blame the
"oil" companies is a farce, a political excuse to focus people away from the
real issues.

And the spread between currency devaluation and fixed value commodities
suggests interest rates should be in the order of 10-12%. Which of course
they are not. Because the Fed is still creating money to address the
liquidity crunch this creates. A real down stream inflation generator.

It is also why I keep little cash. Cash ultimately depreciates to the
bank/governments favor. I keep a 4-5 month inventory of cash in case I get
laid off but after that it is into something more tangible.

Most often think of cash as a constant value, how wrong these people are.
It is generally best viewed as a depreciable asset. Where as an ounce of
gold or barrel of oil will have the same NPV in 30 years.

The bad part is I don't see the Fed/Congress doing a thing about it. I wish
they would. As I expect this to continue. Want to make more on the turn
around, looking for the bottom.

All because I like fishing and not rich enough to retire to do it full time.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:46:45 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal, go
to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

There are no "recreational speculators". Everyone who trades
commodity futures is doing it for business reasons of one sort or
another. You may not agree that all of their reasons are valid but
the commodity futures market is absolutely essential both to the
producers and consumers of any given commodity. The markets
themselves help to dampen out large daily price swings by evening out
supply and demand over time, and so called speculators are part of
that process - just like the stock market. It would be more accurate
to call them short term investors.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:46:45 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal, go
to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

There are no "recreational speculators". Everyone who trades
commodity futures is doing it for business reasons of one sort or
another. You may not agree that all of their reasons are valid but
the commodity futures market is absolutely essential both to the
producers and consumers of any given commodity. The markets
themselves help to dampen out large daily price swings by evening out
supply and demand over time, and so called speculators are part of
that process - just like the stock market. It would be more accurate
to call them short term investors.


Sorry, Wayne, but in fact, there are recreational spectators. A mutual fund
investing in the oil futures market - the manager (and the fund's customers)
are all recreational spectators. About a year ago, a Barron's article
mentioned that on some days, players (let's use that shorter description
from now on) place more trades than oil companies who are legitimately
trying to hedge on behalf of their firms.

However, you're right about "business reasons of one sort or another". The
problem is that "one sort" hurts you and I. No matter who plays in these
markets and whether they win or lose, there's someone who makes out like a
bandit: The clearinghouses.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:46:45 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal,
go
to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

There are no "recreational speculators". Everyone who trades
commodity futures is doing it for business reasons of one sort or
another. You may not agree that all of their reasons are valid but
the commodity futures market is absolutely essential both to the
producers and consumers of any given commodity. The markets
themselves help to dampen out large daily price swings by evening out
supply and demand over time, and so called speculators are part of
that process - just like the stock market. It would be more accurate
to call them short term investors.


Sorry, Wayne, but in fact, there are recreational spectators. A mutual
fund investing in the oil futures market - the manager (and the fund's
customers) are all recreational spectators. About a year ago, a Barron's
article mentioned that on some days, players (let's use that shorter
description from now on) place more trades than oil companies who are
legitimately trying to hedge on behalf of their firms.

Not necessarily speculation, maybe for some. The fact of the mater is our
currencies are not stable (and devaluate/inflation) and neither are most
businesses. Those that bought oil futures, gold and items of a constant
value of aquisition were in fact hedging againt a dollar decline. Good
investment move maintaining value for their investors.

Same reason you buy a home. Once purchased, 30 years later it might be
worth 5-10 times what you paid for it. Is this speculation?

The markets will always weed out blind speculators in time.

However, you're right about "business reasons of one sort or another". The
problem is that "one sort" hurts you and I. No matter who plays in these
markets and whether they win or lose, there's someone who makes out like a
bandit: The clearinghouses.

This is a fact. We all hurt, even though I owned a barrel or two of oil, it
isn't good to make 30% when the currency devalues 30%. In a long term
perspective, while hedged on the devaluation I didn't get value.

But I think that is the whole point of this video:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...ch&pli ndex=1

"Canuck57" wrote in message
news:LBIZi.199547$Da.7070@pd7urf1no...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:46:45 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal,
go
to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

There are no "recreational speculators". Everyone who trades
commodity futures is doing it for business reasons of one sort or
another. You may not agree that all of their reasons are valid but
the commodity futures market is absolutely essential both to the
producers and consumers of any given commodity. The markets
themselves help to dampen out large daily price swings by evening out
supply and demand over time, and so called speculators are part of
that process - just like the stock market. It would be more accurate
to call them short term investors.


Sorry, Wayne, but in fact, there are recreational spectators. A mutual
fund investing in the oil futures market - the manager (and the fund's
customers) are all recreational spectators. About a year ago, a Barron's
article mentioned that on some days, players (let's use that shorter
description from now on) place more trades than oil companies who are
legitimately trying to hedge on behalf of their firms.

Not necessarily speculation, maybe for some. The fact of the mater is our
currencies are not stable (and devaluate/inflation) and neither are most
businesses. Those that bought oil futures, gold and items of a constant
value of aquisition were in fact hedging againt a dollar decline. Good
investment move maintaining value for their investors.

Same reason you buy a home. Once purchased, 30 years later it might be
worth 5-10 times what you paid for it. Is this speculation?

The markets will always weed out blind speculators in time.

However, you're right about "business reasons of one sort or another".
The problem is that "one sort" hurts you and I. No matter who plays in
these markets and whether they win or lose, there's someone who makes out
like a bandit: The clearinghouses.

This is a fact. We all hurt, even though I owned a barrel or two of oil,
it isn't good to make 30% when the currency devalues 30%. In a long term
perspective, while hedged on the devaluation I didn't get value.

But I think that is the whole point of this video:


http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...ch&pli ndex=1


Even if, in a perfect world, there were no currency fluctuations, oil prices
would be bounced around by investors who haven't got a clue about the
physical realities of the oil markets. "Oil jumped a dollar a barrel today
in trading, on fears of renewed violence in Baghdad". Excuse me? Violence in
Baghdad, in a country which statistically speaking provides little or no
oil?

This is the same reason tech stocks all take a dive when one of them
announces low earnings. It's bull****. "on fears of"

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...

Even if, in a perfect world, there were no currency fluctuations, oil
prices would be bounced around by investors who haven't got a clue about
the physical realities of the oil markets. "Oil jumped a dollar a barrel
today in trading, on fears of renewed violence in Baghdad". Excuse me?
Violence in Baghdad, in a country which statistically speaking provides
little or no oil?

This is the same reason tech stocks all take a dive when one of them
announces low earnings. It's bull****. "on fears of"

In a perfect world there would be little speculation due to stability, and
prices would be rather constant. Liquidity of mortgages and bonds would not
be in a crunch. Investors would be happy with a 3-4% return. But for that
to happen the government needs a balanced budget with a **zero** increase in
money supply. Not going to happen any time soon.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Canuck57" wrote in message
news:EzEZi.200735$1y4.155047@pd7urf2no...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Tim" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 10, 9:49 pm, " JimH" ask wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

JimH wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..
...gasoline was $1.46 a gallon.
And the highest gasoline prices were under the leadership of Carter.
And your point is?
Just another data point with which to bury Republicans next year.
Explain how the "Republicans" caused the increase in gasoline prices.

Why would gasoline prices be different today if a Democrat were in
office?
Well I'm not worried about it. Pres. Hillary Obama will get it right
back down to a "buck forty-nine" in just six months, and will have
exec. reps on a rope just like a stringer fll of blue gills.
Nobody will get the price down until we eliminate oil speculation by
investors who have absolutely no connection with the oil business.
Most of the increases in gasoline prices for the last year are due to the
devaluation of the greenback, not in any real way has the value of a
barrel of oil changed.

It is opposite thinking from what politicians preach. A paper currency is
just like stock. It goes up when people want it, and down when people
don't want it. Just like commodities, currency fluxuates in value.

If the US fed raised interest rates and tightened up the money supply the
dollar would have more value. Does not congress work with the Fed on such
maters?

Combine this with sub-prime mortgages and asset backed paper liquidity
problems....

It is more accurate to think of the barrel of oil value being constant and
the currency has lost value. If you had 100% of your investments in a
stable currency last year, they would have gone up 20% against the USD not
including interest.

Blame government monetary policy.


All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal, go
to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

Why should oil be off limits to "recreational" speculators? A commodity
is a commodity and should be treated as such regardless of who is
speculating. Those "recreational" speculators can and do become the
institutional speculators of the future.

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Canuck57" wrote in message
news:EzEZi.200735$1y4.155047@pd7urf2no...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Tim" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 10, 9:49 pm, " JimH" ask wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

JimH wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..
...gasoline was $1.46 a gallon.
And the highest gasoline prices were under the leadership of
Carter.
And your point is?
Just another data point with which to bury Republicans next year.
Explain how the "Republicans" caused the increase in gasoline prices.

Why would gasoline prices be different today if a Democrat were in
office?
Well I'm not worried about it. Pres. Hillary Obama will get it right
back down to a "buck forty-nine" in just six months, and will have
exec. reps on a rope just like a stringer fll of blue gills.
Nobody will get the price down until we eliminate oil speculation by
investors who have absolutely no connection with the oil business.
Most of the increases in gasoline prices for the last year are due to
the devaluation of the greenback, not in any real way has the value of a
barrel of oil changed.

It is opposite thinking from what politicians preach. A paper currency
is just like stock. It goes up when people want it, and down when
people don't want it. Just like commodities, currency fluxuates in
value.

If the US fed raised interest rates and tightened up the money supply
the dollar would have more value. Does not congress work with the Fed
on such maters?

Combine this with sub-prime mortgages and asset backed paper liquidity
problems....

It is more accurate to think of the barrel of oil value being constant
and the currency has lost value. If you had 100% of your investments in
a stable currency last year, they would have gone up 20% against the USD
not including interest.

Blame government monetary policy.


All true, but I stand by my original comment. Oil is one commodity which
should be untouchable by recreational speculators. I'm talking illegal,
go to jail, that sort of thing. You know I'm right.

Why should oil be off limits to "recreational" speculators? A commodity is
a commodity and should be treated as such regardless of who is
speculating. Those "recreational" speculators can and do become the
institutional speculators of the future.



Give me 3 examples of institutional speculators, please.