Gene Kearns wrote:
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:10:10 -0400, Bill Kearney penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

That's bull****, trying to sue the association too. Money grubbing children
trying to score the lottery.

I disagree... at least, in principle... what is the purpose of a
"Lake Association" other than the purpose of social engineering.

If the "association" has failed to control the thoughts and behaviors
of one of its minions.... it should be held accountable..... and so
should all of the people (the "Association") that felt they could
control the actions of others........


Ditto all of those other "Associations" a la HOA.....

.... Go Figure.....


Gene,
I know you don't like HOA's, but do you really think the Association
should be held libel for "damages" because someone was drunk on the
lake? If that is true, couldn't we hold the C of E's responsible for
"damages" due to all DUI's and any other accidental deaths on lakes
under their control?

While the reward would not be as great, we could also sue any and all
lake owners if someone drowned in their private lake even if the victim
or the one responsible for the death was trespassing. After all a
lake should be fenced in to prevent people from trespassing, it really
is an attractive nuisance.

Now if, as Chuck said, the Association ran a club on the lake and served
the individual alcohol that contributed to the person being drunk, I
think they should be held responsible, but not just because they have
set up an Association to set up and enforce covenants for the lake.

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:32:28 -0400, Reginald P. Smithers III penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:10:10 -0400, Bill Kearney penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

That's bull****, trying to sue the association too. Money grubbing children
trying to score the lottery.

I disagree... at least, in principle... what is the purpose of a
"Lake Association" other than the purpose of social engineering.

If the "association" has failed to control the thoughts and behaviors
of one of its minions.... it should be held accountable..... and so
should all of the people (the "Association") that felt they could
control the actions of others........


Ditto all of those other "Associations" a la HOA.....

.... Go Figure.....


Gene,
I know you don't like HOA's, but do you really think the Association
should be held libel for "damages" because someone was drunk on the
lake? If that is true, couldn't we hold the C of E's responsible for
"damages" due to all DUI's and any other accidental deaths on lakes
under their control?

While the reward would not be as great, we could also sue any and all
lake owners if someone drowned in their private lake even if the victim
or the one responsible for the death was trespassing. After all a
lake should be fenced in to prevent people from trespassing, it really
is an attractive nuisance.

Now if, as Chuck said, the Association ran a club on the lake and served
the individual alcohol that contributed to the person being drunk, I
think they should be held responsible, but not just because they have
set up an Association to set up and enforce covenants for the lake.

I was posting a bit tongue-in-cheek..... attorneys tend to list, as a
defendant, everybody-on-earth that ever-had anything-to-do with
whatever-it-was seeking the deepest pockets.

It appears to me that these Lake Associations both control who is or
is not on the lake and have and enforce their own laws (which are most
likely a subset of the local and/or state laws). If I am correct on
that point (though not an attorney) I suspect that the plaintiff has a
pretty good case and will likely prevail in court. (I suspect that the
question will surround whether the victims of the accident had a
reasonable expectation of safely enjoying a privately controlled and
regulated lake.)

Again, don't miss the point that this is all CIVIL litigation made
possible by people who willingly signed on the dotted line and exposed
themselves to the potential hazards of being a defendant in any future
litigation. Lawsuits (nor associations) don't just work in one
direction.

If you are a member of any of these associations, bear in mind that
the association can both sue and be sued. If not properly
incorporated, your personal involvement with the association may have
exposed you to personal risk.

It will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved......

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
-----------------
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-----------------

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:32:28 -0400, Reginald P. Smithers III penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:10:10 -0400, Bill Kearney penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

That's bull****, trying to sue the association too. Money grubbing children
trying to score the lottery.
I disagree... at least, in principle... what is the purpose of a
"Lake Association" other than the purpose of social engineering.

If the "association" has failed to control the thoughts and behaviors
of one of its minions.... it should be held accountable..... and so
should all of the people (the "Association") that felt they could
control the actions of others........


Ditto all of those other "Associations" a la HOA.....

.... Go Figure.....

Gene,
I know you don't like HOA's, but do you really think the Association
should be held libel for "damages" because someone was drunk on the
lake? If that is true, couldn't we hold the C of E's responsible for
"damages" due to all DUI's and any other accidental deaths on lakes
under their control?

While the reward would not be as great, we could also sue any and all
lake owners if someone drowned in their private lake even if the victim
or the one responsible for the death was trespassing. After all a
lake should be fenced in to prevent people from trespassing, it really
is an attractive nuisance.

Now if, as Chuck said, the Association ran a club on the lake and served
the individual alcohol that contributed to the person being drunk, I
think they should be held responsible, but not just because they have
set up an Association to set up and enforce covenants for the lake.

I was posting a bit tongue-in-cheek..... attorneys tend to list, as a
defendant, everybody-on-earth that ever-had anything-to-do with
whatever-it-was seeking the deepest pockets.

It appears to me that these Lake Associations both control who is or
is not on the lake and have and enforce their own laws (which are most
likely a subset of the local and/or state laws). If I am correct on
that point (though not an attorney) I suspect that the plaintiff has a
pretty good case and will likely prevail in court. (I suspect that the
question will surround whether the victims of the accident had a
reasonable expectation of safely enjoying a privately controlled and
regulated lake.)

Again, don't miss the point that this is all CIVIL litigation made
possible by people who willingly signed on the dotted line and exposed
themselves to the potential hazards of being a defendant in any future
litigation. Lawsuits (nor associations) don't just work in one
direction.

If you are a member of any of these associations, bear in mind that
the association can both sue and be sued. If not properly
incorporated, your personal involvement with the association may have
exposed you to personal risk.

It will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved......


Gene,
I agree with everything you said except your interpretation of what is
reasonable expectations of what is the Associations responsibility in
controlling whom has access to use the Associations property. I would
hate to think an HOA would be responsible for a DUI on a street owned
and maintained by a HOA.

ps - Many (I would think most) HOA and the BOD's have insurance to
protect the Association and the BOD's from lawsuits. I know our little
condo HOA has an $5 M of insurance policy.

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:15:41 -0400, Reginald P. Smithers III penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:32:28 -0400, Reginald P. Smithers III penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:10:10 -0400, Bill Kearney penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

That's bull****, trying to sue the association too. Money grubbing children
trying to score the lottery.
I disagree... at least, in principle... what is the purpose of a
"Lake Association" other than the purpose of social engineering.

If the "association" has failed to control the thoughts and behaviors
of one of its minions.... it should be held accountable..... and so
should all of the people (the "Association") that felt they could
control the actions of others........


Ditto all of those other "Associations" a la HOA.....

.... Go Figure.....

Gene,
I know you don't like HOA's, but do you really think the Association
should be held libel for "damages" because someone was drunk on the
lake? If that is true, couldn't we hold the C of E's responsible for
"damages" due to all DUI's and any other accidental deaths on lakes
under their control?

While the reward would not be as great, we could also sue any and all
lake owners if someone drowned in their private lake even if the victim
or the one responsible for the death was trespassing. After all a
lake should be fenced in to prevent people from trespassing, it really
is an attractive nuisance.

Now if, as Chuck said, the Association ran a club on the lake and served
the individual alcohol that contributed to the person being drunk, I
think they should be held responsible, but not just because they have
set up an Association to set up and enforce covenants for the lake.

I was posting a bit tongue-in-cheek..... attorneys tend to list, as a
defendant, everybody-on-earth that ever-had anything-to-do with
whatever-it-was seeking the deepest pockets.

It appears to me that these Lake Associations both control who is or
is not on the lake and have and enforce their own laws (which are most
likely a subset of the local and/or state laws). If I am correct on
that point (though not an attorney) I suspect that the plaintiff has a
pretty good case and will likely prevail in court. (I suspect that the
question will surround whether the victims of the accident had a
reasonable expectation of safely enjoying a privately controlled and
regulated lake.)

Again, don't miss the point that this is all CIVIL litigation made
possible by people who willingly signed on the dotted line and exposed
themselves to the potential hazards of being a defendant in any future
litigation. Lawsuits (nor associations) don't just work in one
direction.

If you are a member of any of these associations, bear in mind that
the association can both sue and be sued. If not properly
incorporated, your personal involvement with the association may have
exposed you to personal risk.

It will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved......


Gene,
I agree with everything you said except your interpretation of what is
reasonable expectations of what is the Associations responsibility in
controlling whom has access to use the Associations property. I would
hate to think an HOA would be responsible for a DUI on a street owned
and maintained by a HOA.

ps - Many (I would think most) HOA and the BOD's have insurance to
protect the Association and the BOD's from lawsuits. I know our little
condo HOA has an $5 M of insurance policy.

$5M in a wrongful death lawsuit would be a pittance.

The charge that, "[The Association] allowed Tonn to drive drunk,
failed to monitor and control watercraft on the lake, failed to ensure
that boaters complied with the Nebraska Safe Boating Act and allowed
unsafe boat operation though they had knowledge it was going on."
leads me to believe that there were association rules that were not
enforced. (I'm making an assumption that the association had rules
concerning safety.)

Though I don't know which lake this was, I strongly suspect that the
association had rules governing safe boating.... similar to these:
http://www.capitolbeachlake.com/Rules/BoatViolation/

IMHO.... there are going to be a lot of litigants that will wish they
had never heard of a "lake association" before this is all over
with.....

As for your analogy.... I think a better one would be....
Your HOA has a restriction against painting houses passionate pink and
growing weed gardens,
Your neighbor has a passionate pink house with a 13 foot tall weed
garden for a front lawn,
The HOA has not enforced their own rules,
You need to sell your house, but can get no buyers because of the
neighbor, therefore you (rightfully) sue for damages and/or
remediation from the HOA.

similar to:

Your lake association has safety rules,
Your neighbor(s) break the safety rules,
The lake association doesn't enforce the rules,
Somebody is harmed and seeks to sue.....

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that this is where the situation
is headed..... and none of it could have happened without the
artificial construct of the "lake association."

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------

Gene Kearns wrote:
r to these:
http://www.capitolbeachlake.com/Rules/BoatViolation/

IMHO.... there are going to be a lot of litigants that will wish they
had never heard of a "lake association" before this is all over
with.....

As for your analogy.... I think a better one would be....
Your HOA has a restriction against painting houses passionate pink and
growing weed gardens,
Your neighbor has a passionate pink house with a 13 foot tall weed
garden for a front lawn,
The HOA has not enforced their own rules,
You need to sell your house, but can get no buyers because of the
neighbor, therefore you (rightfully) sue for damages and/or
remediation from the HOA.

similar to:

Your lake association has safety rules,
Your neighbor(s) break the safety rules,
The lake association doesn't enforce the rules,
Somebody is harmed and seeks to sue.....

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that this is where the situation
is headed..... and none of it could have happened without the
artificial construct of the "lake association."

Gene,

This is going to be an interesting case study. The complaint is worded
similar to many lawsuit, and the wording may or may not actually
represent the actual situation on the lake or the law considers
reasonable performance and enforcement by the Association.

You do understand that the lake association had no employee, no income
and no annual expenses (according to their non profit report submitted
to the state), so I would like to know how the attorney is going to
prove that the "Association" (ie the homeowners/BOD's) "KNEW" that the
driver of the boat (or any other boater on the lake) was drunk and
failed to enforce the rules.

We have public streets and lakes with paid enforcers of the rules, and
on any day/night you will find many people who are DUI, many who are not
caught by the police and have accidents. It would seem that if our
local governments / officials are not able to prevent rules being broken
it is hard to imagine that any association would be able to ensure 100%
compliance of state laws. Is it reasonable to assume that a non profit
association without any employees and budget would be able to do better
than our paid police forces?

As you said it will be interesting to see how it is settled.

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:33:38 -0400, Reginald P. Smithers III penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Gene Kearns wrote:
r to these:
http://www.capitolbeachlake.com/Rules/BoatViolation/

IMHO.... there are going to be a lot of litigants that will wish they
had never heard of a "lake association" before this is all over
with.....

As for your analogy.... I think a better one would be....
Your HOA has a restriction against painting houses passionate pink and
growing weed gardens,
Your neighbor has a passionate pink house with a 13 foot tall weed
garden for a front lawn,
The HOA has not enforced their own rules,
You need to sell your house, but can get no buyers because of the
neighbor, therefore you (rightfully) sue for damages and/or
remediation from the HOA.

similar to:

Your lake association has safety rules,
Your neighbor(s) break the safety rules,
The lake association doesn't enforce the rules,
Somebody is harmed and seeks to sue.....

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that this is where the situation
is headed..... and none of it could have happened without the
artificial construct of the "lake association."

Gene,

This is going to be an interesting case study. The complaint is worded
similar to many lawsuit, and the wording may or may not actually
represent the actual situation on the lake or the law considers
reasonable performance and enforcement by the Association.

You do understand that the lake association had no employee, no income
and no annual expenses (according to their non profit report submitted
to the state), so I would like to know how the attorney is going to
prove that the "Association" (ie the homeowners/BOD's) "KNEW" that the
driver of the boat (or any other boater on the lake) was drunk and
failed to enforce the rules.

We have public streets and lakes with paid enforcers of the rules, and
on any day/night you will find many people who are DUI, many who are not
caught by the police and have accidents. It would seem that if our
local governments / officials are not able to prevent rules being broken
it is hard to imagine that any association would be able to ensure 100%
compliance of state laws. Is it reasonable to assume that a non profit
association without any employees and budget would be able to do better
than our paid police forces?

As you said it will be interesting to see how it is settled.

That is the sad thing about laws..... they only punish..... they are
powerless to prevent.

Frankly, I have no information on the association, at all. If you have
a link, I'd like to read more.....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------

On Sep 6, 8:50?am, Gene Kearns
wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:32:28 -0400, Reginald P. Smithers III penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:





Gene Kearns wrote:
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:10:10 -0400, Bill Kearney penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

That's bull****, trying to sue the association too. Money grubbing children
trying to score the lottery.

I disagree... at least, in principle... what is the purpose of a
"Lake Association" other than the purpose of social engineering.

If the "association" has failed to control the thoughts and behaviors
of one of its minions.... it should be held accountable..... and so
should all of the people (the "Association") that felt they could
control the actions of others........

Ditto all of those other "Associations" a la HOA.....

.... Go Figure.....

Gene,
I know you don't like HOA's, but do you really think the Association
should be held libel for "damages" because someone was drunk on the
lake? If that is true, couldn't we hold the C of E's responsible for
"damages" due to all DUI's and any other accidental deaths on lakes
under their control?

While the reward would not be as great, we could also sue any and all
lake owners if someone drowned in their private lake even if the victim
or the one responsible for the death was trespassing. After all a
lake should be fenced in to prevent people from trespassing, it really
is an attractive nuisance.

Now if, as Chuck said, the Association ran a club on the lake and served
the individual alcohol that contributed to the person being drunk, I
think they should be held responsible, but not just because they have
set up an Association to set up and enforce covenants for the lake.

I was posting a bit tongue-in-cheek..... attorneys tend to list, as a
defendant, everybody-on-earth that ever-had anything-to-do with
whatever-it-was seeking the deepest pockets.

It appears to me that these Lake Associations both control who is or
is not on the lake and have and enforce their own laws (which are most
likely a subset of the local and/or state laws). If I am correct on
that point (though not an attorney) I suspect that the plaintiff has a
pretty good case and will likely prevail in court. (I suspect that the
question will surround whether the victims of the accident had a
reasonable expectation of safely enjoying a privately controlled and
regulated lake.)

Again, don't miss the point that this is all CIVIL litigation made
possible by people who willingly signed on the dotted line and exposed
themselves to the potential hazards of being a defendant in any future
litigation. Lawsuits (nor associations) don't just work in one
direction.

If you are a member of any of these associations, bear in mind that
the association can both sue and be sued. If not properly
incorporated, your personal involvement with the association may have
exposed you to personal risk.

It will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved......

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepagehttp://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguidehttp://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
-----------------www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com- *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
------------------ Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was once asked to serve on the board of a yacht club.I found out the
club had no D&O (directors and officers) indemnity insurance- and we
cured that almost immediately. IMO, nobody should ever serve as a
board member or officer in any organization or corporation without
sufficient D&O insurance to cover the asse(t)s of the folks
responsible for defining and enforcing policies. Obviously in this
particular case the plaintiff has suffered a serious and irreversible
loss and if justice prevails he will be awarded something in return---
but it's a tough break when volunteer board members or even individual
club members are named in a lawsuit concerning a situation to which
they weren't acutally a party.

Chuck Gould wrote:
Obviously in this
particular case the plaintiff has suffered a serious and irreversible
loss and if justice prevails he will be awarded something in return---
but it's a tough break when volunteer board members or even individual
club members are named in a lawsuit concerning a situation to which
they weren't acutally a party.


Chuck,
What happened in this case that the Lake Association responsible for the
actions of a drunk boater?

According to the lawsuit: The association, the lawsuit says, allowed
Tonn to drive drunk, failed to monitor and
control watercraft on the lake, failed to ensure that boaters complied
with the
Nebraska Safe Boating Act and allowed unsafe boat operation though they
had knowledge
it was going on.

This seems like a very general claim, trying to negotiate a settlement.

Should all government and private authorities be held responsible for
the damages caused by those boating while under the influence? If so it
will result in all of us paying a much higher expense to use our
favorite boating area.