A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

Here's an item that is specific to WA state, but may also represent
similar situations elsewhere around the country:




Back Away From the Boat Soap, Sort of, Part II


Readers of our last issue will recall that we made some inquiries with
the City of Seattle, Department of Public Utilities, concerning the
rules and regulations surrounding the washing of boats. Our
investigation was prompted by an incident last January during which
City of Seattle inspectors ordered a halt to all boat washing as
dealers and brokers were setting up for the Boats Afloat portion of
the Seattle Boat Show. We learned that it is illegal to put any
"pollutant" into any storm drains or gutters in Seattle, as well as
illegal to put any pollutant directly into a lake, stream, or body of
sal****er within city limits. Soap is considered a pollutant.

The Seattle Municipal Code includes a very deliberate loophole. In
fact, the loophole is enormous enough that every car and truck
registered in the City of Seattle (approximately 400,000) can be
driven through without it without so much as an administrative
scratch.
The private washing of cars and trucks is specifically allowed in
Seattle, soap and all.
The City "encourages" automobile owners to pull cars onto grassy lawns
or use a commercial car wash, but the Municipal Code permits a private
auto owner to regularly flush gallons of soapy water down a driveway
and into the storm drains without restriction or fear of consequences.
Boat owners, with far less opportunity to position a boat over a
grassy area and certainly no access to commercial wash facilities with
water recycling systems, are absolutely prohibited from using soap in
any manner that could result in soap getting into a lake or bay.

During discussion, our contacts at the Department of Public Utilities
referred to the Revised Code of Washington as the basic legal
justification for the "no soap" rule.
We decided to check with the State of Washington, Department of
Ecology. As Lewis Carroll observed in Alice in Wonderland, things
suddenly got "curiouser and curiouser".

Our exploration of the state position began with a visit to the
Washington State Department of Ecology web site. We typed "boat
washing" into the site's search engine and were directed to a document
titled "Ten Simple Things You Can Do (to improve the health of Puget
Sound)"

(The web address for the page is:http://www.psat.wa.gov/you_can_do/
10_things.htm)

Item #7 on the list of "things you can do" addresses boat washing. The
site reads,

"Keep your boat and our water clean
Rinse and scrub your boat hull and decks with a brush instead of using
soap. If your boat is stained, use phosphate-free soap or laundry
detergent to clean it."

"So," we wondered, "is there hope for soap? It appears that the state
approves of phosphate fee soap or laundry detergent." Our follow up
phone call to the Department of Ecology proved to be a classic example
of government confusion and bureaucratic doublespeak. The officials we
spoke to were polite, informative, and entirely without any actual
clue regarding the realities of boat washing or maintenance.

(deleted for NG): We're looking into the laws regarding the washing of
boats, both within the City of Seattle as well as elsewhere around the
state. What can you tell us about the state laws, and how would the
Department of Ecology suggest that our readers clean their boats?

DOE: It's not legal to wash a boat in any manner where soap gets into
the water. We suggest that people put their boats onto boat trailers,
truck them home, and park them on the front lawn to wash them. This
practice allows the grass to soak up the sudsy water and keeps it out
of the gutters and storm drains.

(deleted for NG): That's fine for people with trailerable boats, but
the largest percentage of our readership consists of cruising power
boaters, and the boats are typically too large to go onto a trailer.

DOE: In the case of a boat that's too large to be taken home on a
trailer, we would like to see a boat like that hauled out at a
commercial boatyard. One of the biggest problems is the type of paint
you guys use on your boats. There are two types of paint, an ablative
one that is soft and designed to flake away when washed and the other
that's hard and will stand up to washing. We'd like to see you all use
the hard paint, but we want you to use a boatyard because some of the
paint is likely to flake off and we really don't want that to get into
the water.

(deleted for NG): Sorry, we may have been unclear in our original
question. We're not talking about cleaning ablative bottom paint,
we're referring strictly to paint or gelcoat above the waterline- a
routine washing, not an annual bottom job. Surely you don't mean to
suggest that a boater spend several hundred dollars or more to get
hauled out every time a dirty boat needs washing?

DOE: Of course not. Boaters are free to wash their topsides as much as
they want as long as they use only pure water without any soap or
chemicals. But any serious scrubbing with soap should really be done
in a boatyard, where the runoff water will be captured and filtered
before it discharges into the lake or sound. That soft paint is a
serious issue; we'd like to see you use hard paint on your boats.

(Oh, dear me)

(deleted for NG): What portion of the RCW allows for exceptions? We
spoke to the City of Seattle and learned that the Municipal Code
specifically permits the private washing of cars and trucks. There are
about 400,000 cars and trucks in Seattle, and probably only 10,000 to
15,000 boats that are too large to be hauled home on a trailer. Would
the state RCW allow the City of Seattle to include an exemption for
private boat washing?

DOE: The City of Seattle actually doesn't have the legal authority to
permit any discharge of soap into storm sewers from any source. That
would include washing cars and trucks. The Seattle Municipal Code is
out of compliance with Washington State Law.

(deleted for NG): We're also curious about the page on the Department
of Ecology website titled "Ten Things You Can Do". Item number seven
suggest that boaters use non-phosphate soap or laundry detergent to
clean "stains" from a boat. According to what you have just told us,
the DOE's own website is advising people to wash boats illegally.

DOE: You can use as much non phosphate or laundry soap as you want, as
long as none of it gets into the water. In fact, you can even wash a
boat without hauling it out if you follow a couple of simple steps.
After you have cleaned off everything that will come off with pure
water, plug up any of the drains, I think you guys call them scuppers,
so no water will run off the deck. Then you can use a very small
amount of soap. When you rinse it off, the soap will be trapped on
your deck. Pump that soapy water into a series of five-gallon buckets,
carry it up to the nearest restroom, and flush it down the toilet into
the sanitary sewer.

(deleted for NG): That sounds like a lot of work, but it would keep
soap from the topsides from getting into the water on many different
types of boats. How about the hull itself? There's no way to prevent
water from running down the sides and back into the lake or sound.

DOE: In the case of any surface where the soap cannot be prevented
from running into the water, you can't use any soap. The only legal
way to the outside of the hull without hauling out is with clear
water, some elbow grease, and a rag.

******************


Next issue: What are our options, if any?

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

State-paid idiots. I know where to use "some elbow grease, and a rag" on
them.
JR

Chuck Gould wrote:
Here's an item that is specific to WA state, but may also represent
similar situations elsewhere around the country:




Back Away From the Boat Soap, Sort of, Part II


some elbow grease, and a rag.

******************


Next issue: What are our options, if any?



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

"JR North" wrote in message
.. .
State-paid idiots. I know where to use "some elbow grease, and a rag" on
them.
JR


Actually........west coast idiots.

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

On 9 Apr 2007 14:01:18 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

DOE: In the case of any surface where the soap cannot be prevented
from running into the water, you can't use any soap. The only legal
way to the outside of the hull without hauling out is with clear
water, some elbow grease, and a rag.

******************


Next issue: What are our options, if any?

That's easy, wash your boat where no one can see you. :-)

We had an interesting issue in Connecticut about 5 years ago. There
was a drought one summer and washing of boats at a dock was made
illegal since that was a low impact target politically speaking.

The marine police in Stamford were actually staking out the marinas
and yacht clubs trying to catch people doing wash downs. There was no
issue with filling your water tanks at the dock however, so everyone
would come into the dock, fill up, and then go back out to their
mooring for a cleanup.

Perfectly legal.

I would suggest somthing similar for the great Pacific north wet. Put
some of your favorite low suds cleaner (and there are some) in an
unmarked spray bottle and go at it discretely.

Your boat show issue was caused by too many people washing down at the
same time with no regard for the visual impact.

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...

Here's an item that is specific to WA state, but may also represent
similar situations elsewhere around the country:


Not soap, but related in a way:

The spilling of gasoline, diesel fuel in the water or on land has been
identified as a high level pollutant to groundwater, lakes and the oceans.
The public has been told that an incredibly small amount of gasoline spilled
on the ground can contaminate the ground water for miles.

Yet, as recently as 1999, the USA was using over 70 billion (with a "b")
lbs. of asphalt a year, building and maintaining millions of miles of
roadways. Asphalt is the last product made from crude oil after gasoline,
diesel fuel, refined oil and other petroleum products have been produced.
The asphalt is then spread all over the land, for roads and parking lots.
Storm drains are used to carry rain and melting snow from the roads into the
ground, lakes and ocean waters.
As the asphalt ages, it dries up, the remaining petroleum having been washed
away with the rain into the lakes and ocean waters.

70 billion lbs a year of fresh, oily asphalt spread out all over the land,
leaching into the water. And the bureaucrats and ecologists are worried
about soap bubbles?

Eisboch

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

On Apr 9, 8:33 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message

oups.com...

Here's an item that is specific to WA state, but may also represent
similar situations elsewhere around the country:

Not soap, but related in a way:

The spilling of gasoline, diesel fuel in the water or on land has been
identified as a high level pollutant to groundwater, lakes and the oceans.
The public has been told that an incredibly small amount of gasoline spilled
on the ground can contaminate the ground water for miles.

Yet, as recently as 1999, the USA was using over 70 billion (with a "b")
lbs. of asphalt a year, building and maintaining millions of miles of
roadways. Asphalt is the last product made from crude oil after gasoline,
diesel fuel, refined oil and other petroleum products have been produced.
The asphalt is then spread all over the land, for roads and parking lots.
Storm drains are used to carry rain and melting snow from the roads into the
ground, lakes and ocean waters.
As the asphalt ages, it dries up, the remaining petroleum having been washed
away with the rain into the lakes and ocean waters.

70 billion lbs a year of fresh, oily asphalt spread out all over the land,
leaching into the water. And the bureaucrats and ecologists are worried
about soap bubbles?

Eisboch

I've been using that example for years. Also keep in mind that even
the concrete roads are covered and soaked in dirty engine oil, fuel
leaks, etc. I think all roads should immediately be torn up and
remediated as hazardous waste. OR, get practical with these stupid
regulations.

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

"Keith" wrote in message
ups.com...

On Apr 9, 8:33 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message

oups.com...

Here's an item that is specific to WA state, but may also represent
similar situations elsewhere around the country:

Not soap, but related in a way:

The spilling of gasoline, diesel fuel in the water or on land has been
identified as a high level pollutant to groundwater, lakes and the
oceans.
The public has been told that an incredibly small amount of gasoline
spilled
on the ground can contaminate the ground water for miles.

Yet, as recently as 1999, the USA was using over 70 billion (with a "b")
lbs. of asphalt a year, building and maintaining millions of miles of
roadways. Asphalt is the last product made from crude oil after
gasoline,
diesel fuel, refined oil and other petroleum products have been produced.
The asphalt is then spread all over the land, for roads and parking lots.
Storm drains are used to carry rain and melting snow from the roads into
the
ground, lakes and ocean waters.
As the asphalt ages, it dries up, the remaining petroleum having been
washed
away with the rain into the lakes and ocean waters.

70 billion lbs a year of fresh, oily asphalt spread out all over the
land,
leaching into the water. And the bureaucrats and ecologists are worried
about soap bubbles?

Eisboch


I've been using that example for years. Also keep in mind that even
the concrete roads are covered and soaked in dirty engine oil, fuel
leaks, etc. I think all roads should immediately be torn up and
remediated as hazardous waste. OR, get practical with these stupid
regulations.



The soap "event" Chuck is posting about could very well have been initiated
by an
environmentally concerned, non-boater who, for some reason, attended the
boat show, saw the soap bubbles then made a complaint, all while his oil
dripping car parked on the asphalt paved lot caused more contamination of
the water than all the boat washings combined.

Eisboch

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 06:57:38 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Keith" wrote in message
oups.com...

On Apr 9, 8:33 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message

oups.com...

Here's an item that is specific to WA state, but may also represent
similar situations elsewhere around the country:

Not soap, but related in a way:

The spilling of gasoline, diesel fuel in the water or on land has been
identified as a high level pollutant to groundwater, lakes and the
oceans.
The public has been told that an incredibly small amount of gasoline
spilled
on the ground can contaminate the ground water for miles.

Yet, as recently as 1999, the USA was using over 70 billion (with a "b")
lbs. of asphalt a year, building and maintaining millions of miles of
roadways. Asphalt is the last product made from crude oil after
gasoline,
diesel fuel, refined oil and other petroleum products have been produced.
The asphalt is then spread all over the land, for roads and parking lots.
Storm drains are used to carry rain and melting snow from the roads into
the
ground, lakes and ocean waters.
As the asphalt ages, it dries up, the remaining petroleum having been
washed
away with the rain into the lakes and ocean waters.

70 billion lbs a year of fresh, oily asphalt spread out all over the
land,
leaching into the water. And the bureaucrats and ecologists are worried
about soap bubbles?

Eisboch


I've been using that example for years. Also keep in mind that even
the concrete roads are covered and soaked in dirty engine oil, fuel
leaks, etc. I think all roads should immediately be torn up and
remediated as hazardous waste. OR, get practical with these stupid
regulations.



The soap "event" Chuck is posting about could very well have been initiated
by an
environmentally concerned, non-boater who, for some reason, attended the
boat show, saw the soap bubbles then made a complaint, all while his oil
dripping car parked on the asphalt paved lot caused more contamination of
the water than all the boat washings combined.

Eisboch


Isn't that the truth!

Strange, your last message shows up on my last as having been posted at
5:57, but mine shows 6:56. Don't know what causes that, but it's strange.

I've been looking at the Airstream Westfalia. http://tinyurl.com/6uqfh Did
you by any chance consider it when buying your RV?
--
*****Have a Spectacular Day!*****

John H

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

"John H." wrote in message
...


I've been looking at the Airstream Westfalia. http://tinyurl.com/6uqfh Did
you by any chance consider it when buying your RV?

No, we didn't. I don't think Airstream was offering a Sprinter based RV at
the time that we bought ours. Now, just about every RV manufacturer offers
one.

Airstream commands a premium price for their traditional "silver bullet"
travel trailers and they have an excellent reputation. The Sprinter is a
conversion, not a built from scratch trailer, so I don't know if the premium
price is warranted. The base price shown on their website is about what we
paid for the Pleasure-Way that we purchased and it is fully optioned.
Ours is also not as tall .... 9'6" versus 11' for the Airstream version.
One thing I noticed ... there does not appear to be a generator option ...
or at least not that I could easily find.

Eisboch

A quizzical conversation with local state ecologists...
 

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:44:02 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .


I've been looking at the Airstream Westfalia. http://tinyurl.com/6uqfh Did
you by any chance consider it when buying your RV?

No, we didn't. I don't think Airstream was offering a Sprinter based RV at
the time that we bought ours. Now, just about every RV manufacturer offers
one.

Airstream commands a premium price for their traditional "silver bullet"
travel trailers and they have an excellent reputation. The Sprinter is a
conversion, not a built from scratch trailer, so I don't know if the premium
price is warranted. The base price shown on their website is about what we
paid for the Pleasure-Way that we purchased and it is fully optioned.
Ours is also not as tall .... 9'6" versus 11' for the Airstream version.
One thing I noticed ... there does not appear to be a generator option ...
or at least not that I could easily find.

Eisboch


OK. Thanks.
--
*****Have a Spectacular Day!*****

John H