1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party. it
has the 5.8 cobra in it and trim tabs and what not. i am looking for
any information on this boat as to the boat itself or the engine and
outdrive. looking for any information that i can get regarding the
safety of this boat. and what to look out for . i am having a mechanic
look at it first before the deal is final. just wondering if the is
any information out there regarding this boat/engine history that
someone can help me with. it would be most apprecitated. this is our
first BIG boat. we just upgraded from a 1850 bayliner 1999. and used
the money to get this bigger one for the family and friends. camping
and fun. also know what the top speed is on this as well. 351. thanks
for any information you can provide. brian

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. The book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. Practically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if you can find one that is.

has the 5.8 cobra in it and trim tabs and what not. i am looking for
any information on this boat as to the boat itself or the engine and
outdrive. looking for any information that i can get regarding the
safety of this boat. and what to look out for . i am having a mechanic
look at it first before the deal is final.

It's a "bubble" boat - a type of vessel designed for maximum interior
space. They tend to have a lot of windage and accessing the bow along
the deck can be problematic and in some cases downright dangerous.
Cockpit space can be limited due to design.

just wondering if the is
any information out there regarding this boat/engine history that
someone can help me with. it would be most apprecitated. this is our
first BIG boat. we just upgraded from a 1850 bayliner 1999. and used
the money to get this bigger one for the family and friends. camping
and fun. also know what the top speed is on this as well. 351. thanks
for any information you can provide.

Well, first, you are going down ten years from '99 to '89 and that's
never a good thing. Are you trading your boat against this boat by
any chance?

Secondly, it's your choice, but I would have a marine surveyor look
through the boat before I put any serious money on it - a mechanic is
fine for looking over the engine and outdrive, but this type of boat
can develop some interesting problems over time and surveyors have
access to information not generally available to the public.

It also depends on how the boat was used, how many hours of use, how
it was stored (on a trailer, shrink wrapped or tarp or nothing), etc.

If it were me and I was looking for a larger boat, I'd look into other
makes and models. For ten grand you can buy a newer used boat
probably in better condition.

I refuse to get into the whole Bayliner debate except for this - it's
right before Trophy bought them and I believe Bayliner had some
serious issues with quality about this time. I could be wrong.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. The book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. Practically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if you can find one that is.

has the 5.8 cobra in it and trim tabs and what not. i am looking for
any information on this boat as to the boat itself or the engine and
outdrive. looking for any information that i can get regarding the
safety of this boat. and what to look out for . i am having a mechanic
look at it first before the deal is final.

It's a "bubble" boat - a type of vessel designed for maximum interior
space. They tend to have a lot of windage and accessing the bow along
the deck can be problematic and in some cases downright dangerous.
Cockpit space can be limited due to design.

just wondering if the is
any information out there regarding this boat/engine history that
someone can help me with. it would be most apprecitated. this is our
first BIG boat. we just upgraded from a 1850 bayliner 1999. and used
the money to get this bigger one for the family and friends. camping
and fun. also know what the top speed is on this as well. 351. thanks
for any information you can provide.

Well, first, you are going down ten years from '99 to '89 and that's
never a good thing. Are you trading your boat against this boat by
any chance?

Secondly, it's your choice, but I would have a marine surveyor look
through the boat before I put any serious money on it - a mechanic is
fine for looking over the engine and outdrive, but this type of boat
can develop some interesting problems over time and surveyors have
access to information not generally available to the public.

It also depends on how the boat was used, how many hours of use, how
it was stored (on a trailer, shrink wrapped or tarp or nothing), etc.

If it were me and I was looking for a larger boat, I'd look into other
makes and models. For ten grand you can buy a newer used boat
probably in better condition.

I refuse to get into the whole Bayliner debate except for this - it's
right before Trophy bought them and I believe Bayliner had some
serious issues with quality about this time. I could be wrong.


I am not sure, but I had the feel that this was a troll. $10,000 for a
18yr old Bayliner 2455 seemed high, but he is asking for opinions after
he signed a contract. Something about a cart before a horse comes to mind.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 3:42�am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? *:)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. *The book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. *Practically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if *you can find one that is.


You could make a really decent living buying up all the perfect, mint,
showroom condition 2455 Bayliners you can find for $6000. Here is an
abbreviated list of boats currently available (from Boats.com). I'll
bet most are not in bristol shape, but you'll see the pricing trend:

'84 24 Ciera (Huron, OH) $8900
'87 24 Ceira (Rogers, MN) $8995
'88 245 (Egg Harbor, NJ) $7995
87 2450 (Aurora, IN) $9950
'87 2450 Ciera (St Clair Shores, MI) $9999
'87 2450 (Washington, NV) $8990
88 2450 Ciera (Everett, WA) $12995
'89 2455 (South Haven, MI) $9900
'87 2455 (New Windsor, NY) $14900 (?!)
89 2455 (Verplank, NY) $9200
'89 2455 (Red Wing, MN) $6295
'88 2455 (Alton Bay, NH) $6495
'89 2455 (New Buffalo, MI) $6900
'89 2455 (Westbrook, ME) $9995
'88 2455 (Portland, ME) $11,495
'88 2455 (Chicago, IL) $14000
'89 2455 (Fox Lake, IL) $12995
'88 2455 (Port Clinton, OH) $12995


The list goes on and on, but this covers the first three pages in the
exact order that the boats appeard. Out of 18 boats, only three are
listed under $7k, ( and none listed at $6k or less) while 10 are
listed at effectively $10,000 or more.

It would be pretty difficult to make a case that $6000 is the
appropriate selling price for this boat in bristol condition. Of
course there will be a difference between asking and selling price,
but not typically 40-50%.

The boat in question in the original post is worth somewhere between
$ZERO and the price the poster is paying for it.

I agree that he needs to spend a little money on a surveyor now rather
than a ton of money on unexpected repairs a couple of months from now.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On 12 Mar 2007 10:09:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

On Mar 12, 3:42?am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. he book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. ractically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if 9ou can find one that is.


You could make a really decent living buying up all the perfect, mint,
showroom condition 2455 Bayliners you can find for $6000. Here is an
abbreviated list of boats currently available (from Boats.com). I'll
bet most are not in bristol shape, but you'll see the pricing trend:

Low/Average retail via NADA.

'84 24 Ciera (Huron, OH) $8900

$4260/4280

'87 24 Ceira (Rogers, MN) $8995

$5188/$5870

'88 245 (Egg Harbor, NJ) $7995

$5530/6270

87 2450 (Aurora, IN) $9950

$5180/5870

'87 2450 Ciera (St Clair Shores, MI) $9999

Same

'87 2450 (Washington, NV) $8990

Same

88 2450 Ciera (Everett, WA) $12995

$5530/6270

'89 2455 (South Haven, MI) $9900

$6150/6980

'87 2455 (New Windsor, NY) $14900 (?!)

$5180/8870

89 2455 (Verplank, NY) $9200

$6150/6980


And so on.

The list goes on and on, but this covers the first three pages in the
exact order that the boats appeard. Out of 18 boats, only three are
listed under $7k, ( and none listed at $6k or less) while 10 are
listed at effectively $10,000 or more.

Well, I don't know how you got 18 boats because I only got eleven and
of the eleven, six were appropriately priced. From Boats.com.

It would be pretty difficult to make a case that $6000 is the
appropriate selling price for this boat in bristol condition. Of
course there will be a difference between asking and selling price,
but not typically 40-50%.

Them's the figures. When was the last time you sold a '88/89 Bayliner
even in Bristol condition for more than it's retail value?

Being totally fair, I called three marine dealers that I know and had
them check their books against NADA - dead nuts on the money.

I guess you should have stayed in the boat sales business rather than
the magazine business if you think you can get that for a Bayliner of
that age regardless of condition.

By the way, the ones I saw that were in the "ridiculous" category, one
had a new engine with less than 100 hours. And two of the more higher
priced ones were "price reduced!!!".

There's nothing wrong with maximizing your "return", but there is
unrealistic.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The boat in question in the original post is worth somewhere between
$ZERO and the price the poster is paying for it.

Duh.

I agree that he needs to spend a little money on a surveyor now rather
than a ton of money on unexpected repairs a couple of months from now.

Well slap my ass and call me Sally - we agree on something. :)

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 11:28�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 10:09:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"





wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:42?am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. *he book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. *ractically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if 9ou can find one that is.

You could make a really decent living buying up all the perfect, mint,
showroom condition 2455 Bayliners you can find for $6000. Here is an
abbreviated list of boats currently available (from Boats.com). I'll
bet most are not in bristol shape, but you'll see the pricing trend:

Low/Average retail via NADA.

'84 24 Ciera (Huron, OH) $8900

$4260/4280

So this guy is double NADA


'87 24 Ceira (Rogers, MN) $8995

$5188/$5870


This guy is 50-70% above NADA


'88 245 (Egg Harbor, NJ) $7995

$5530/6270


This guy is 30-50% over NADA



87 2450 (Aurora, IN) $9950

$5180/5870


More than 50% over NADA



'87 2450 Ciera (St Clair Shores, MI) $9999

Same

'87 2450 (Washington, NV) $8990

Same

88 2450 Ciera (Everett, WA) $12995

$5530/6270

More than double NADA



'89 2455 (South Haven, MI) $9900

$6150/6980


50% or more over NADA


'87 2455 (New Windsor, NY) $14900 (?!)

$5180/8870


way the heck over NADA




89 2455 (Verplank, NY) $9200

$6150/6980

And so on.

The list goes on and on, but this covers the first three pages in the
exact order that the boats appeard. Out of 18 boats, only three are
listed under $7k, ( and none listed at $6k or less) while 10 are
listed at effectively $10,000 or more.

Well, I don't know how you got 18 boats because I only got eleven and
of the eleven, six were appropriately priced. *From Boats.com.


I actually got 64


http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/l...=45&Search.y=9


Almost none were as cheaply priced as NADA suggests they should be.

There are problems associated with using the NADA (National Automobile
Dealers Association) book for boat pricing.

1. Boat pricing is far more regional than auto pricing. If there is a
huge price disparity on (for example) 2002 Toyota Corrolas available
at auction in Texas and the same car available at auction in Oregon,
the car carriers start to roll and things between the cheaper place
and the more expensive and things even out. Seldom happens with boats,
particularly cheap boats. NADA publishes a one-pricebook-fits-all-
regions book.

2. There is no data to support any of the numbers in the NADA boat
book. Nothing. NADA auto books are based on auction results on the
wholesale level, with formulas applied to project retail and average
trade. There are no boat auctions.

3. NADA basic values often strip a boat down to almost nothing except
the hull and the engines, with enormous tables of options to add back
to the base price.

4. NADA books are primarily sold to 1) Brokers, who use them to
justify taking trades in very cheaply. 2) Finance companies, who use
them to demand larger down payments so that "risky" loans
collateralized by boats represent distress sale balances.

And of course the largest problem of all with NADA----- there's no
order blank in the book. If 45 out of 60 sellers of a particular
model are asking 30-100% more than NADA "high retail", there ought to
be a huge landslide of business available to anybody willing to take
the NADA price

Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".







I agree that he needs to spend a little money on a surveyor now rather
than a ton of money on unexpected repairs a couple of months from now.

Well slap my ass and call me Sally - we agree on something. *:)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 11:28�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 10:09:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"





wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:42?am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. *he book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. *ractically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if 9ou can find one that is.

You could make a really decent living buying up all the perfect, mint,
showroom condition 2455 Bayliners you can find for $6000. Here is an
abbreviated list of boats currently available (from Boats.com). I'll
bet most are not in bristol shape, but you'll see the pricing trend:

Low/Average retail via NADA.

'84 24 Ciera (Huron, OH) $8900

$4260/4280

So this guy is double NADA


'87 24 Ceira (Rogers, MN) $8995

$5188/$5870


This guy is 50-70% above NADA


'88 245 (Egg Harbor, NJ) $7995

$5530/6270


This guy is 30-50% over NADA



87 2450 (Aurora, IN) $9950

$5180/5870


More than 50% over NADA



'87 2450 Ciera (St Clair Shores, MI) $9999

Same

'87 2450 (Washington, NV) $8990

Same

88 2450 Ciera (Everett, WA) $12995

$5530/6270

More than double NADA



'89 2455 (South Haven, MI) $9900

$6150/6980


50% or more over NADA


'87 2455 (New Windsor, NY) $14900 (?!)

$5180/8870


way the heck over NADA




89 2455 (Verplank, NY) $9200

$6150/6980

And so on.

The list goes on and on, but this covers the first three pages in the
exact order that the boats appeard. Out of 18 boats, only three are
listed under $7k, ( and none listed at $6k or less) while 10 are
listed at effectively $10,000 or more.

Well, I don't know how you got 18 boats because I only got eleven and
of the eleven, six were appropriately priced. *From Boats.com.


I actually got 64


http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/l...=45&Search.y=9


Almost none were as cheaply priced as NADA suggests they should be.

There are problems associated with using the NADA (National Automobile
Dealers Association) book for boat pricing.

1. Boat pricing is far more regional than auto pricing. If there is a
huge price disparity on (for example) 2002 Toyota Corrolas available
at auction in Texas and the same car available at auction in Oregon,
the car carriers start to roll and things between the cheaper place
and the more expensive and things even out. Seldom happens with boats,
particularly cheap boats. NADA publishes a one-pricebook-fits-all-
regions book.

2. There is no data to support any of the numbers in the NADA boat
book. Nothing. NADA auto books are based on auction results on the
wholesale level, with formulas applied to project retail and average
trade. There are no boat auctions.

3. NADA basic values often strip a boat down to almost nothing except
the hull and the engines, with enormous tables of options to add back
to the base price.

4. NADA books are primarily sold to 1) Brokers, who use them to
justify taking trades in very cheaply. 2) Finance companies, who use
them to demand larger down payments so that "risky" loans
collateralized by boats represent distress sale balances.

And of course the largest problem of all with NADA----- there's no
order blank in the book. If 45 out of 60 sellers of a particular
model are asking 30-100% more than NADA "high retail", there ought to
be a huge landslide of business available to anybody willing to take
the NADA price

Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".







I agree that he needs to spend a little money on a surveyor now rather
than a ton of money on unexpected repairs a couple of months from now.

Well slap my ass and call me Sally - we agree on something. *:)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On 12 Mar 2007 12:54:54 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".

I take your points - all good ones.

However that does not negate the obvious fact that NADA book pricing
for both trade in and retail are the values used when setting boat
prices no matter where you live.

That's a fact. There may be individual market fluctuations that make
a boat's value go up or down, but on average, NADA is the book used
and thus reflects the relative value of the vessel.

The only other way to price a boat is via BUC and when I asked, the
BUC value was about 5/8% higher than NADA.

For instance:

In my zip code, my 2000 Ranger with 2000 FICHT with trailer has a low
value of 14,700 and a average value of 16,800.

For Charleston, SC, it's exactly the same number.

For Fort Lauderdale, FL it's about $500 higher on both ends.

Based on that, I would think that the boat is worth about that and
based on what I'm seeing, it is.

Now with 16,000 of new engine, to me it's worth a lot more, but I
seriously doubt that I'd get even close to 32000 if I decided to sell
it.

By the way, how did you get that search report? I can't get more than
11 boats listed.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 1:33�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 12:54:54 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".

I take your points - all good ones.

However that does not negate the obvious fact that NADA book pricing
for both trade in and retail are the values used when setting boat
prices no matter where you live.


NADA is routinely disregarded by most boat dealers and brokers, except
when
trying to take a trade at a very low price.

NADA is often thought of as "the bible" of boat pricing, because it is
presumed to be a mirror. It's not a mirror. There is not enough data
to support the numbers and in many cases there is no data at all. If
the NADA were an up-to-date *reflection* of the market, that would
make it pretty useful. However, it's all formula driven, rather than
sales history driven, and the assumptions are that all boats
depreciate at the same rate and nearly as fast as an automobile.
(NADA).

If people are routinely buying and selling boats for prices far above
or far below the NADA guidebook, it's that market activity- rather
than NADA's guesstimate.




That's a fact. *There may be individual market fluctuations that make
a boat's value go up or down, but on average, NADA is the book used
and thus reflects the relative value of the vessel.


To pick a nit: the NADA only reports the NADA "value" of the vessel.
Because NADA does not survey actual transaction prices, or even
advertised prices, it has very little to do with a functioning market
value. When NADA offers to buy or is in a position to sell boats at
the values they publish then they can be considered part of the
market.

If NADA were first a mirror, it could be used as a bible. Attempting
to be a bible without being a mirror makes it of very little value, as
there is nothing of any substance behind the alleged authority.





The only other way to price a boat is via BUC and when I asked, the
BUC value was about 5/8% higher than NADA.

For instance:

In my zip code, my 2000 Ranger with 2000 FICHT with trailer has a low
value of 14,700 and a average value of 16,800.

For Charleston, SC, it's exactly the same number.

For Fort Lauderdale, FL it's about $500 higher on both ends.

Based on that, I would think that the boat is worth about that and
based on what I'm seeing, it is.

Now with 16,000 of new engine, to me it's worth a lot more, but I
seriously doubt that I'd get even close to 32000 if I decided to sell
it.

By the way, how did you get that search report? *I can't get more than
11 boats listed.


1. go to advanced serch
2. plug in Bayliner
3. plug in 24-25 feet (some people will report at 2455 as a 24-footer,
others as a 25 footer)
4. plug in a range of model years beginning 1 year before the boat in
question and ending a year after. With older boats, 1 year one
direction or another makes almost no difference in value- but it
brings up a lot more boats to help establish a trend. On nearly new
boats, you want to stick to the specific model year.
5. plug in "no-limit" in distance from your zipcode to see the entire
US.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 1:33�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 12:54:54 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".

I take your points - all good ones.

However that does not negate the obvious fact that NADA book pricing
for both trade in and retail are the values used when setting boat
prices no matter where you live.

That's a fact. *There may be individual market fluctuations that make
a boat's value go up or down, but on average, NADA is the book used
and thus reflects the relative value of the vessel.

The only other way to price a boat is via BUC and when I asked, the
BUC value was about 5/8% higher than NADA.

For instance:

In my zip code, my 2000 Ranger with 2000 FICHT with trailer has a low
value of 14,700 and a average value of 16,800.

For Charleston, SC, it's exactly the same number.

For Fort Lauderdale, FL it's about $500 higher on both ends.

Based on that, I would think that the boat is worth about that and
based on what I'm seeing, it is.

Now with 16,000 of new engine, to me it's worth a lot more, but I
seriously doubt that I'd get even close to 32000 if I decided to sell
it.

By the way, how did you get that search report? *I can't get more than
11 boats listed.

I should have included with my other reply:

There are resources available to professional brokers and dealers that
allow a closer look at the actual *selling prices* of used boats. One
such resource is
the boatwizard program available to subscribing brokers through
yachtworld.com. There are limitations to these sites, as well, but
they are better than NADA. On the sites I'm referring to, brokers
removing sold boats from the yachtworld inventory have the option of
reporting the actual selling price. To be sure, there are some brokers
who are either the world's most effective negotiators or who aren't
being honest- as every one of their listings is reported sold at full
asking price. (Makes a great, and probably greatly dishonest, tool to
use when competing with other brokers for listings. "See? List with
me! All of our boats sell for full asking price!") By factoring out
the known story-tellers, it's posible to get a very concise look at
actual market transactions on a specific make and model of boat in a
specific region.

The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
That's the focus of the question.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
That's the focus of the question.

You obviously know more than anybody here about the subject.

I bow to your expertise.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 6:13 pm, Gene Kearns


89 Bayliners make excellent submarines.

and reefs



Why do you think they're called "Bay-liners?"

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

also easy to clean the cabin after the deck pops off.
JR

Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute wrote:

In message ups.com, brian
sprach forth the following:


89 Bayliners make excellent submarines.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:00:28 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, Chuck Gould penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
That's the focus of the question.

Jeeze, Chuck..... an "offering price" is nearly always a *reality
check* for these price point boats. Based on local selling/buying he
most likely got stung. His market might be *really different,* but I
don't know why.....

No, let's not beat up Chuck - he has a lot of experience in this area
and I for one will take his word that NADA is not used by boat dealers
of any good repute.

I'm sure that all those Bayliner owners will sell their boats for well
north of the listed NADA price.

I'll take Chuck at his word.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On 12 Mar 2007 18:03:51 -0700, "Tim" wrote:

On Mar 12, 6:13 pm, Gene Kearns


89 Bayliners make excellent submarines.

and reefs

Why do you think they're called "Bay-liners?"

Ok - that was funny. :)

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 6:00?pm, Gene Kearns
wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, Chuck Gould penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:





On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
That's the focus of the question.

Jeeze, Chuck..... an "offering price" is nearly always a *reality
check* for these price point boats. Based on local selling/buying he
most likely got stung. His market might be *really different,* but I
don't know why.....


It's tough to craft a convincing argument that there is no resale
market for the most popular selling boat new boat in the world.

I haven't seen the guy's boat. It could be a real Turdship, or not. I
wouldn't begin to say what the boat is worth without seeing it, nor
should others. Unless a market is locally depressed for a particular
model (as you say yours is for all Bayliners), there is going to be
reslae activity at a general price level.

The skeptic pipes up and says, "But how do you know that those 40 some
out of 60 people advertising their boats for 40-100% (and more) above
the NADA are getting those prices?" Obviously, we don't. However, we
do have a general indicator. People with a boat on the market always
tend to start high. Human nature. When a boat goes unsold for week
after week, the advertised price starts getting a little softer. In
most cases, the price drops at a slow but steady pace until the phone
starts to ring. Joila! That's the price that will lkely attract a
buyer in the local market. The fact that very, very few of the
Bayliners similar to the one the original poster just bought are
priced down even close to the "high retail" in NADA is a pretty good
indicator that the street price is a lot higher than the NADA fantasy
figure. The boats are being sold and disappear from the market before
the sellers have to get down to such a low number.

No serious marine lenders in our region use NADA for anything boating
related. A couple of credit unions do- but only because their loan
underwriting guidelines require them to do so.

I'll never forget a go-around I had with a local credit union one
time. A guy came in and put money on a boat, and said he was going to
arrange his own financing. Fine. As I remember, he made better than
just an "OK" deal on about a 35-foot boat. He called me two days
later, mad as heck. He'd stopped payment on his deposit check, and
accused me of trying to rip him off.
"My credit union showed me the NADA," he said. "Even with all the
options figured in, you were charging me over $30,000 too much for the
boat!" (The transaction price was about $150,000).

I sent him copies of the reported sales prices for the same boat in
our region.
I sent him copies of the advertised asking prices for the same boat in
our region. I reminded him that he had been shopping and comparing for
several months before he made the offer on the boat. He said, "The
only people I can count on to be on my side in this whole deal is my
credit union. They're telling me that you're trying to rip me off, and
that's the end of the story as far as we're concerned."

Finally I called the credit union. "Sorry," said the loan officer. "We
adhere stricly to the NADA guidelines."

"So how many boat loans do you write?" I asked.

"Almost none. Everybody comes in with a deal that's so far over book
we're not allowed to make the loan."

In other words, "the rest of the army is out of step".

I ran into the same customer several months later. I asked him what
sort of boat he finally ended up with. "Oh, we haven't bought a boat
yet. We can't find anybody honest enough to sell us one for what NADA
and the credit union says we should pay."

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 12, 9:52�pm, "Chuck Gould" wrote:
On Mar 12, 6:00?pm, Gene Kearns
wrote:





On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, Chuck Gould penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
That's the focus of the question.

Jeeze, Chuck..... an "offering price" is nearly always a *reality
check* for these price point boats. Based on local selling/buying he
most likely got stung. His market might be *really different,* but I
don't know why.....

It's tough to craft a convincing argument that there is no resale
market for the most popular selling boat new boat in the world.

I haven't seen the guy's boat. It could be a real Turdship, or not. I
wouldn't begin to say what the boat is worth without seeing it, nor
should others. Unless a market is locally depressed for a particular
model (as you say yours is for all Bayliners), there is going to be
reslae activity at a general price level.

The skeptic pipes up and says, "But how do you know that those 40 some
out of 60 people advertising their boats for 40-100% (and more) above
the NADA are getting those prices?" *Obviously, we don't. However, we
do have a general indicator. People with a boat on the market always
tend to start high. Human nature. When a boat goes unsold for week
after week, the advertised price starts getting a little softer. In
most cases, the price drops at a slow but steady pace until the phone
starts to ring. Joila! That's the price that will lkely attract a
buyer in the local market. The fact that very, very few of the
Bayliners similar to the one the original poster just bought are
priced down even close to the "high retail" in NADA is a pretty good
indicator that the street price is a lot higher than the NADA fantasy
figure. The boats are being sold and disappear from the market before
the sellers have to get down to such a low number.

No serious marine lenders in our region use NADA for anything boating
related. A couple of credit unions do- but only because their loan
underwriting guidelines require them to do so.

I'll never forget a go-around I had with a local credit union one
time. A guy came in and put money on a boat, and said he was going to
arrange his own financing. Fine. As I remember, he made better than
just an "OK" deal on about a 35-foot boat. He called me two days
later, mad as heck. He'd stopped payment on his deposit check, and
accused me of trying to rip him off.
"My credit union showed me the NADA," he said. "Even with all the
options figured in, you were charging me over $30,000 too much for the
boat!" (The transaction price was about $150,000).

I sent him copies of the reported sales prices for the same boat in
our region.
I sent him copies of the advertised asking prices for the same boat in
our region. I reminded him that he had been shopping and comparing for
several months before he made the offer on the boat. *He said, "The
only people I can count on to be on my side in this whole deal is my
credit union. They're telling me that you're trying to rip me off, and
that's the end of the story as far as we're concerned."

Finally I called the credit union. "Sorry," said the loan officer. "We
adhere stricly to the NADA guidelines."

"So how many boat loans do you write?" I asked.

"Almost none. Everybody comes in with a deal that's so far over book
we're not allowed to make the loan."

In other words, "the rest of the army is out of step".

I ran into the same customer several months later. I asked him what
sort of boat he finally ended up with. "Oh, we haven't bought a boat
yet. We can't find anybody honest enough to sell us one for what NADA
and the credit union says we should pay."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pretty interesting, Chuck.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used. Years
ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat value
estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.

Eisboch

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

Eisboch wrote:
I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used. Years
ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat value
estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.

Eisboch


In my limited experience, NADA is used by broker's when they are buying
a used boat to justify their low ball offer.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..


I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used.
Years ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat
value estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.

Eisboch



I agree. And your local library probably carries the last years edition.
They also offer an appraisal service for a fee.

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

Eisboch wrote:
I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used. Years
ago I bought the BUC books and, if I recall correctly, their boat value
estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.

Eisboch

For an alternative to NADA did anybody ever use:

http://www.edmunds.com/

just curious how the values would compare...

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

On Mar 13, 5:32�am, "JimH" wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message

. ..



I haven't followed this thread, but I am wondering why NADA is used.
Years ago I bought the BUC *books and, if I recall correctly, their boat
value estimates are based on actual sales by region and by condition.

Eisboch

I agree. *And your local library probably carries the last years edition.
They also offer an appraisal service for a fee.

BUC is a little better than NADA.

In the last 10 years or so they have lost most access to the data that
once made them pretty reliable.

At one time, the customary data exchange and multiple listing service
for yacht brokers was called BUC.net. It was a pretty sweet deal for
BUC. When you logged on to check regional inventory, etc, you paid
something like $1 a minute to use the service. A busy brokerage office
might run up a bill of $20-$30 a day! Along came Yachtworld with the
broker's-only password protected side, Boatwizard that offered better
service for something under $200 a month when they first began.
(Yachtworld is now several hundred per month- maybe leaving the door
open for the next better mousetrap?). Most of the brokers got out of
BUC.net within a couple of years, and the service lost its data.

BUC does send out sheets to yacht brokers and asks them to report on
the
boats they have sold. There's not much incentive to do that, and it
probably gets put into the "when I get a round tuit" file much of the
time.

A word of caution on BUC. The regional differences are fixed
percentages that are supposed to apply across the board. Doesn't work
that smoothly in real life.
IIRC, there was a 15% add-on for boats in the Pacific NW. Boats do
sell for more money here than elsewhere as there is a lot of
opportunity to use them and the lack of intense sunlight for most of
the year keeps UV degradation to a minimum. That said, a good clean
trawler here will often bring 25% more than the "national average" for
the same vessel, while a picnic or lobster boat that would be very
popular on the East Coast probably will need to be heavily discounted
to sell at all......(exception seems to be the Grand Banks Eastbay
series).

Another tripping point with BUC is the "condition" tables. Everybody
always overestimtes the condition of their boat when they are selling,
and everybody always expects a *lot*, conditionwise, when buying. Far
too many sellers with a decently clean boat, (in the same shape that
most people who cared about their boat would keep it), add on for
"Bristol" condition when using BUC. Conversely, the typical buyer
looks for a reason to offer less and will try to bluff the seller by
stating that he only considers what might be the cleanest boat in the
world "average".

The dance of the buyer and seller goes on, and on, and on. :-)

1989 bayliner ciera 2455
 

At any rate...good luck with the new boat - enjoy!

"brian" wrote:
i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet
party. it
has the 5.8 cobra in it and trim tabs and what not. i am
looking for
any information on this boat as to the boat itself or the
engine and
outdrive. looking for any information that i can get regarding
the
safety of this boat. and what to look out for . i am having a
mechanic
look at it first before the deal is final. just wondering if
the is
any information out there regarding this boat/engine history
that
someone can help me with. it would be most apprecitated. this
is our
first BIG boat. we just upgraded from a 1850 bayliner 1999.
and used
the money to get this bigger one for the family and friends.
camping
and fun. also know what the top speed is on this as well. 351.
thanks
for any information you can provide. brian