New electronics -- NEMA question
 

After a storm, and then some shadey guys ripping off our boats; I had to pick
upo some new electronics.

I picked up a garmin 498 sounder & Standard Horizon PS2000.

They both work fine, however, independantly.
When they try to talk (nema) is when I have a problem.

The VHF radio can read the position information from teh garmin. But the garmin
cannot read the information from the radio. (ie: DSC calls)

Garmin is telling me it "does work" and Standard Horizon is telling me that "it
does work" but it doesn't.

I have tried
DSC call
DSC position request
DSC distress

None of them make it to the gps, despite the radio picking it up. I have gone
over the nema wiring about 2 dozen times; so I fear it's a few hours away from
Garmin placing the blame on Standard Horizon, and then Standard Horizon placing
the blame on Garmin.

SO -- long way of getting to my question:
How can I test/see/read the nema sentence being sent from the radio to be sure
it's leaving the radio -- so I can send the gps in, and if it's not sending the
data, send the radio in?

Or, anyone have any bright ideas on what to try?

Thanks
-j


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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:01:07 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

How can I test/see/read the nema sentence being sent from the radio to be sure
it's leaving the radio

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

Settings are usually 4800 baud, 8 data bits, no parity.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Josh Assing wrote:
After a storm, and then some shadey guys ripping off our boats; I had to pick
upo some new electronics.

I picked up a garmin 498 sounder & Standard Horizon PS2000.

They both work fine, however, independantly.
When they try to talk (nema) is when I have a problem.

The VHF radio can read the position information from teh garmin. But the garmin
cannot read the information from the radio. (ie: DSC calls)

Garmin is telling me it "does work" and Standard Horizon is telling me that "it
does work" but it doesn't.

I have tried
DSC call
DSC position request
DSC distress

None of them make it to the gps, despite the radio picking it up. I have gone
over the nema wiring about 2 dozen times; so I fear it's a few hours away from
Garmin placing the blame on Standard Horizon, and then Standard Horizon placing
the blame on Garmin.

SO -- long way of getting to my question:
How can I test/see/read the nema sentence being sent from the radio to be sure
it's leaving the radio -- so I can send the gps in, and if it's not sending the
data, send the radio in?

Or, anyone have any bright ideas on what to try?

You could have a couple of different problems here.

Have you made the comm connection live on the GPS by selecting Comm port
1 or 2? Is there a similar selection on the radio?

Check the wiring connections and make sure that you have NEMA out to out
and in to in. That's a common problem.

Other than using a logic probe or oscilloscope, I'm not really sure how
you could view the signal real time.

Out of curiosity, which model Standard is the radio? I ask because I
read somewhere what some Standard radios have a wiring misprint - I read
that on another forum.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:01:07 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

How can I test/see/read the nema sentence being sent from the radio to be sure
it's leaving the radio

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

Settings are usually 4800 baud, 8 data bits, no parity.

I'll be danged - I didn't think of that.

Learn something old every day. :)

Will it read display the sentence as transmitted?

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
m...
Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:01:07 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

How can I test/see/read the nema sentence being sent from the radio to
be sure
it's leaving the radio

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

Settings are usually 4800 baud, 8 data bits, no parity.

I'll be danged - I didn't think of that.

Learn something old every day. :)

Will it read display the sentence as transmitted?

Yup, hyperterm just displays as what arrives. You can save the data also.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Wait... I need my heart pills... there is something that Tom didn't already
know.... I ... neeed...my...nitro....

:-))

--Mike

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
m...
Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:01:07 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

How can I test/see/read the nema sentence being sent from the radio to
be sure
it's leaving the radio

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

Settings are usually 4800 baud, 8 data bits, no parity.

I'll be danged - I didn't think of that.

Learn something old every day. :)

Will it read display the sentence as transmitted?

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Mike wrote:
Wait... I need my heart pills... there is something that Tom didn't already
know.... I ... neeed...my...nitro....

Hey - I told you, I've made an entire career of either forgetting stuff
or making mistakes.

~~ sheesh ~~ :)

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:33:07 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

Typo in above, should have read:

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the **GPS**.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:33:07 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

Typo in above, should have read:

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the **GPS**.

You know, how people parse sentences is a fascinating subject.

I didn't even notice that.

Yeah Mike, I know - hard to believe I'm not perfect.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:14:42 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

You know, how people parse sentences is a fascinating subject.

Yep, sometimes the brain sees what it wants to see, not what is
actually there.

If I'm writing something really important, I'll try to sit on the
draft overnight and then read it again the next day before sending.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:43:24 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:14:42 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

You know, how people parse sentences is a fascinating subject.

Yep, sometimes the brain sees what it wants to see, not what is
actually there.

If I'm writing something really important, I'll try to sit on the
draft overnight and then read it again the next day before sending.

Reading it out loud is a great way to find mistakes.
--
*****Have a Spectacular Day!*****

John H

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

DSC call info (for instance, the result of a position request)

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

Nice -- know where I can find the pin out for the serial cable?


Settings are usually 4800 baud, 8 data bits, no parity.


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

You could have a couple of different problems here.

That's what I figured...

Have you made the comm connection live on the GPS by selecting Comm port
1 or 2? Is there a similar selection on the radio?

well; no; I've connected by nema in/out

VHF NEMA OUT ---- GPS NEMA IN
VHF NEMA IN ---- GPS NEMA OUT
VHF GROUND - GPS GROUND

Check the wiring connections and make sure that you have NEMA out to out
and in to in. That's a common problem.

Wow -- then I totally fubar'd that installation -- since I read the manual; it
seems like "DATA OUT" form one device goes to "DATA IN" on teh other device....

I'll try it your way. Except the VHF radio is getting GPS data just fine, so
I'm betting that it'd fubar that up....

Out of curiosity, which model Standard is the radio? I ask because I
read somewhere what some Standard radios have a wiring misprint - I read
that on another forum.

VHF: Standard Horizon PS2000 talking
GPS: Garmin 498 Sounder

Thanks
-josh


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Can you hook up a laptop and see what form the sentences take from
hardware "X" ?

I could; if I knew which way to plug in a wire to a com port....

"It don't work" isn't acceptable from tech support. "The two devices
will not communicate because......." leaves the door open to make it
happen.

That's why I'm frustrated & came here...

You need more information....

Like what? I'm out of ideas....

-j


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Josh Assing wrote:
You could have a couple of different problems here.

That's what I figured...

Have you made the comm connection live on the GPS by selecting Comm port
1 or 2? Is there a similar selection on the radio?

well; no; I've connected by nema in/out

VHF NEMA OUT ---- GPS NEMA IN
VHF NEMA IN ---- GPS NEMA OUT
VHF GROUND - GPS GROUND

Check the wiring connections and make sure that you have NEMA out to out
and in to in. That's a common problem.

Wow -- then I totally fubar'd that installation -- since I read the manual; it
seems like "DATA OUT" form one device goes to "DATA IN" on teh other device....

I'll try it your way. Except the VHF radio is getting GPS data just fine, so
I'm betting that it'd fubar that up....

And you would exactly right.

D'Oh!!!

You have it right.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Josh Assing wrote:
You could have a couple of different problems here.

That's what I figured...

Have you made the comm connection live on the GPS by selecting Comm port
1 or 2? Is there a similar selection on the radio?

well; no; I've connected by nema in/out

When I did mine, I had to open the comm 1 port on the GPS to engage the
NEMA data transfer. There should be a selection on your GPS menu tabs
to enable the comm port to engage dialog with the radio.

Sorry about that wiring mixup. :)

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

"Josh Assing" wrote in message
...
What kind of sentence are you expecting the radio to send? Usually it
works the other way around with the radio receiving positional
sentences from the VHF.

DSC call info (for instance, the result of a position request)

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

Nice -- know where I can find the pin out for the serial cable?


Settings are usually 4800 baud, 8 data bits, no parity.


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You are only interested in 2,3,5 on a 9 pin connector.
http://www.balances.com/scientech/im...2connector.gif
gives a picture. You can get an RS232 to USB cable for anywhere in the
range of $7 to a Belden at about $30. I got one at Fry's of the $7 variety
last year to run to my Garmin 162 for firmware and map uploads from the
laptop. IF no data coming in swap 2 & 3. A few years ago we got PCMCIA
RS232 comm cards for a project I worked on. the USB are cleaner and nicer
and cheaper. If you have an older PC they might still have a comm port.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

You are only interested in 2,3,5 on a 9 pin connector.
http://www.balances.com/scientech/im...2connector.gif
gives a picture. You can get an RS232 to USB cable for anywhere in the
range of $7 to a Belden at about $30. I got one at Fry's of the $7 variety
last year to run to my Garmin 162 for firmware and map uploads from the
laptop. IF no data coming in swap 2 & 3. A few years ago we got PCMCIA
RS232 comm cards for a project I worked on. the USB are cleaner and nicer
and cheaper. If you have an older PC they might still have a comm port.

Hmm. Nema only has 2 (data & common) common is, much of the time, just ground.

For instance, Garmin GPS has only 2 wires for NEMA (data IN and data OUT) --
you use ground for the common)

SO if I want to READ data, I'd just use 2 & (5 or 9)?

Thanks
-josh


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

And you would exactly right.

D'Oh!!!

You have it right.

I hate when we forget it all! ;-)


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

When I did mine, I had to open the comm 1 port on the GPS to engage the
NEMA data transfer. There should be a selection on your GPS menu tabs
to enable the comm port to engage dialog with the radio.

Hmm. I'll have to look at it again.... I didn't see anything about com ports --
but I wasn't looking for it -- I"ll check it...

So you're theory is just that it needs a "bump" to get it going... I like it --
I hate computers, but I'm willing to try anything.

Sorry about that wiring mixup. :)
No worries...

I appreciate the advice.

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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:10:32 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

Can you hook up a laptop and see what form the sentences take from
hardware "X" ?

I could; if I knew which way to plug in a wire to a com port....

http://www.airborn.com.au/rs232.html

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Can you hook up a laptop and see what form the sentences take from
hardware "X" ?

http://www.airborn.com.au/rs232.html

Thanks Wayne -- i'll try to make up a cable and see what I see....

I'm just unclear about which nema ground to go to which pin -- I figure I can do
the nema out goes to the data in (pin #2)



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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:53:20 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

I'm just unclear about which nema ground to go to which pin -- I figure I can do
the nema out goes to the data in (pin #2)

I've done this in the past and gotten it to work without too much
difficulty. If it doesn't work on 2, try 3.

The other headache is trying to orient yourself with respect to the
connector shell drawings and/or reading the microscopic pin numbers on
the connector. A good magnifying glass can help.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

Thanks; I'll porbably head off island and pick up a db9 connector tomorrow.

"stay tuned"

-j


On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:36:02 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:53:20 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

I'm just unclear about which nema ground to go to which pin -- I figure I can do
the nema out goes to the data in (pin #2)

I've done this in the past and gotten it to work without too much
difficulty. If it doesn't work on 2, try 3.

The other headache is trying to orient yourself with respect to the
connector shell drawings and/or reading the microscopic pin numbers on
the connector. A good magnifying glass can help.


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

To answer your question, you can read the data on your PC using the
hyperterminal utility under Programs Accessories Communications.
You will need a serial cable and working COM port.

Settings are usually 4800 baud, 8 data bits, no parity.


Well; to the group -- here's my progress...

I grabbed my old garmin 12xl (for which I have a serial cable to test with)
set it to NEMA/NEMA and plugged it into my laptop. This was just so I could
test it out to be sure I coudl see "something" before hauling stuff to the boat

I couldn't get HyperTerminal to work -- just kept telling me it oculdn't
communicate with my serial port.

I found an old copy of "Tera Term" and loaded it up -- as soon as I did; data
just started flying across the screen. Nothing I could understand, but it WAS
data.... (for anyone interested: http://jassing.com/temp/12xl.data, the "break'
in the data was when I disconnected the unit to be sure I was reading the 12xl
not something else)

SO!!! I'm on track; now I"ll bring down the cable & laptop to the boat & plug it
into the vhf radio to see what kind of data I read.

Anyone know how to decode the sentences?

-j


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:11:59 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

Thanks; I'll porbably head off island and pick up a db9 connector tomorrow.

I find it easier to buy a ready made cable with the right kind of
connector already on it.

Cut the cable and use an ohmmeter or continuity checker to figure out
which wires go to which pins. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be
a color code that is universally recognized.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:11:59 -0800, Josh Assing
wrote:

Thanks; I'll porbably head off island and pick up a db9 connector
tomorrow.

I find it easier to buy a ready made cable with the right kind of
connector already on it.

Cut the cable and use an ohmmeter or continuity checker to figure out
which wires go to which pins. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be
a color code that is universally recognized.


There is a color code, but on RS232 cables 2 & 3 can be crossed, or straight
through. A null modem cable has the transmit and receive lines crossed and
they may have some of the other control lines also.
The color code is from the old resistor markings.
Biloxi = Black = 0
Booze = Brown = 1
Rots = Red = 2
Our = orange = 3
Young = yellow = 4
Guts = green = 5
But = blue = 6
Vodka = violet = 7
Goes = grey = 8
Well = white = 9
get = gold = 1% tolerance
some = silver 10%
Now = none = 20%

This is one of the acceptable poems to remember it by.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:48:18 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

I find it easier to buy a ready made cable with the right kind of
connector already on it.

I went one better -- used my old 12xl - pc cable -- nema, 4 pins -- known
pinout -- easy to shove a couple of wires in there.

Now -- that said --
that DEFINATELY helped --- while I couldn't undersetand the information being
sent to the display -- I saw that some data was being sent. This is good!

so it proved the radio was sending data. I traced teh wires & found a break in
the wire to the gps -- now the gps is getting DSC data.

I'm a little bummed that the PS2000 doesn't send dsc data when a general call
comes in. It appears to only send data when another system responds to a
"position request" or it receives a "distress call" -- otherwise, it sits
quietly....

I liked my old radio that sent sentences when any dsc call was made, you could
then use the gps as a "call log" for easily seening calls that were missed.
ANyway; not worth swapping out now!

Thanks to everyone -- the using a serial cable trick was definately a ticket to
help debug it.

-josh


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

This is one of the acceptable poems to remember it by.


I have to ask.... what are the unacceptable poems?

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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

via email

"Josh Assing" wrote in message
...
This is one of the acceptable poems to remember it by.


I have to ask.... what are the unacceptable poems?

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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

I have to ask.... what are the unacceptable poems?
via email

Yea; it was -- don't ask. ;-)

Thanks for the follow thru Bill.


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New electronics -- NEMA question
 

I traced teh wires & found a break in
the wire to the gps

Which you could've done the just as easily with a volt meter's continuity
test function.

New electronics -- NEMA question
 

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:02:26 -0500, "Bill Kearney" wkearney-99@hot-mail-com
wrote:

I traced teh wires & found a break in
the wire to the gps

Which you could've done the just as easily with a volt meter's continuity
test function.

well that;s exactly how I found it...

I wouldnt have expected brand new wire to be defective, so there was little to
no reason to be suspect of wire to be faulty initially....

one end was soldered, taped, and tucked away behind trim. the other end open --
so initially doing tha twould have been huge work (took about 30 minutes to undo
the trim work alone) once verified no singal was making it out.. .well; yes;
that's what I did... but it really didn't make sense to do that initially -- I
was just thinking that there was something in teh electronics that needed to get
done that I was missing.

--j


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