On Jan 30, 10:26�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.



I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.

If you want to know how effective the mfg'er and the dealer believe
check out the warranty onhttp://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. *It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

According to my contact at this company's local retail dealer, the
devices are being sold with a "satisfaction guarantee". IOW, put one
on, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't you get your money
back. My contact said that his company would not have agreed to carry
the item if it were not for the satsfaction guarantee. Like my, all he
has to go on are a list of satisfied customers and some general
understanding that it *might* work.

On Jan 30, 11:51?am, Wayne.B wrote:
On 30 Jan 2007 10:41:50 -0800, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:16?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.- Hide quoted text -

I think a snake would be diamagnetic. :-)

Chuck, I don't think you are dong the boating community any favor by
giving these devices undeserved publicity.

I'm not endorsing them or claiming any specific knowledge that they
work.
Everybody who has been boating for more than a week should already be
aware of these devices; they are on display and advertised all over
the place.

On Jan 30, 10:36�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

Chuck,
You should ask the dealer to lend you a "magnetic fuel conditioner", so
you can do some "test" on your boat. *You could then publish the results
in your magazine. *If the fuel is being burnt more efficiently and less
is being pumped out as unburned fuel and/or smoke, one should expect an
increase in your mpg and/or gph at any given rpm.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd be willing to try one out to see if I could tell any difference,
but they're not suitable for use with iron fuel tanks.

Like I have said, I'm not claiming that these things work- merely
intrigued by the possiblity that they might and that there may be some
scientific basis for a magnetic field affecting the electrons of the
hyrodgen atom.

If these devices are a scam (and they might be), it is certainly one
of the longest running and most successful scams to come down the pike
in a long time. Magnetic fuel conditioners have been around for at
least 10 years that I can remember, and probably more. The local
dealer for another brand of magnetic fuel conditioner mentioned to me
that he sold out of these things today, retailing as many in the first
5 days of this year's boat show as he sold in all 9 days last year.

So far in this discussion we have:

Gould, wondering whether these things could work
Others, absolutely certain that they could not work
Still others, claiming that they have used one of these devices and
been pleased with the result.

Notably missing:

Anyone with first hand experience with a magnetic fuel conditioner who
noticed either no results or negative results. Anybody out there
willing to fess up? :-)

On Jan 30, 11:01�am, David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

:On Jan 30, 10:08???am, David Scheidt wrote:
: Chuck Gould wrote:
:
: :I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
: :a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
: :by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
: :well-known and respected local company representing it as well.
:
: If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
: independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. ?The studies would
: show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
: emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
: improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. ?No
: one has done such studies. ?Instead, what you've got is
: pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
: smoke, and a few mirrors.

:I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
:experience with one.

:You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
ersonal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
:indepedent organization.

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. *Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. *Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. *If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use? *

I don't believe they work, because I know enough physics to understand
that the claims people make are equivalant to claiming the moon is
made of green cheese.

:Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
:that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
:needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
:than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
:some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
:convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
:sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
:"unverifiable".

So you ask someone, who's just spent a silly amount of money having
one of these things installed, whether it works. *Of course they're
going to say it does. *To say it doesn't, would mean admiting that
they'd been taken in on the scam. *People don't like to admit they've
made mistakes that cost them money. *

David

How would an acceptable test from an independent organization differ
from
this data, compiled by a company certified by the California Air
Resouce Board?

http://www.diesel-fuels.com/pdf/lgx-test.pdf


Please understand, I'm not defending the data or insisting that these
devices work, simply wondering what the standard for an independent
test would be?

Chuck Gould wrote:

:I'd be willing to try one out to see if I could tell any difference,
:but they're not suitable for use with iron fuel tanks.

:Like I have said, I'm not claiming that these things work- merely
:intrigued by the possiblity that they might and that there may be some
:scientific basis for a magnetic field affecting the electrons of the
:hyrodgen atom.

The moon is made of green cheese, Chuck. That's just as likely as
these things working. The allegedly scientific explanation makes as
much sense as pointing a wand at your engine, saying "Abra-Cadbra!"
and expecting your fuel usage to fall. Don't take my word for it,
though. See what the FTC has to say:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm

If they worked, you'd know it. They're a scam.

On Jan 30, 9:21�pm, David Scheidt wrote:


The moon is made of green cheese, Chuck. *That's just as likely as
these things working. *The allegedly scientific explanation makes as
much sense as pointing a wand at your engine, saying "Abra-Cadbra!"
and expecting your fuel usage to fall. *Don't take my word for it,
though. *See what the FTC has to say:http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm

If they worked, you'd know it. *They're a scam.

Certainly very interesting.

Any comment on the data developed by a CARB certified testing agency
and linked in a previous post in this thread? �

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:26�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.



I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.
If you want to know how effective the mfg'er and the dealer believe
check out the warranty onhttp://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. �It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

According to my contact at this company's local retail dealer, the
devices are being sold with a "satisfaction guarantee". IOW, put one
on, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't you get your money
back. My contact said that his company would not have agreed to carry
the item if it were not for the satsfaction guarantee. Like my, all he
has to go on are a list of satisfied customers and some general
understanding that it *might* work.


As someone else pointed out, according to the EPA, who has tested the
"magnetic fuel conditioners" they do not work and according to the FTC
they are scams, and all consumers should be skeptical of their "consumer
testimonials".

Reminds me of all the "consumer testimonials" provided by Slick 50.
After a few years it was found that Slick 50 actually damaged many engines.
The claims were proven false and Slick 50 agreed to settle out of court.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.htm

If this magnetic fuel conditioner actually worked, the mfg'er could gain
some great PR by proving the EPA wrong. It is also reasonable to assume
the EPA would love to endorse a product that actually increased fuel
efficiency and reduced pollution. It is also reasonable to expect boat
mfg'ers would jump on a very inexpensive product that would allow them
to provide better fuel economy. Everything about this product says scam.

While your retailer might be providing a satisfaction guarantee, the
mfg'er is not as confident about the product as the the retailer.

When the EPA states magnetic fuel conditioners are a scam, it really
isn't in the best interest of a magazine to provide free PR for a
product that the experts believe will not work.

I would have thought you would have avoided this product like the
plague, even if it is being retailed by a local store who does advertise
in your mag.

Chuck Gould wrote:
:On Jan 30, 9:21???pm, David Scheidt wrote:

:
: The moon is made of green cheese, Chuck. ?That's just as likely as
: these things working. ?The allegedly scientific explanation makes as
: much sense as pointing a wand at your engine, saying "Abra-Cadbra!"
: and expecting your fuel usage to fall. ?Don't take my word for it,
: though. ?See what the FTC has to say:http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm
:
: If they worked, you'd know it. ?They're a scam.

:Certainly very interesting.

:Any comment on the data developed by a CARB certified testing agency
:and linked in a previous post in this thread? ???

Too small a sample size to mean anything, for one thing. I'm not in
the mood to really look at the numbers, but there's substantal
variation in them run to run. That's not necessarily a flaw, but it
does mean that they need more data to show that the changes they
report mean anything. And they don't report some things that would
make a difference in how the engine runs, like the coolant
temperature, or the ambient temperature.

Chuck Gould wrote:

I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

Then don't be such a gullible shill.

-rick-

On Jan 30, 9:54�pm, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:26?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.

I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.
If you want to know how effective the mfg'er and the dealer believe
check out the warranty onhttp://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. ?It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

According to my contact at this company's local retail dealer, the
devices are being sold with a "satisfaction guarantee". IOW, put one
on, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't you get your money
back. My contact said that his company would not have agreed to carry
the item if it were not for the satsfaction guarantee. Like my, all he
has to go on are a list of satisfied customers and some general
understanding that it *might* work.

As someone else pointed out, according to the EPA, who has tested the
"magnetic fuel conditioners" they do not work and according to the FTC
they are scams, and all consumers should be skeptical of their "consumer
testimonials".

Reminds me of all the "consumer testimonials" provided by Slick 50.
After a few years it was found that Slick 50 actually damaged many engines.
* The claims were proven false and Slick 50 agreed to settle out of court.