Am looking at a boat from Dicks Sporting goods...they have it branded
as a Woodsman by Wilderness. Wilderness is part of Confluence
Watersports which owns Dagger and Mad river, looks like it is made by
Mad River it is a Horizon 15 with wood/nylon webed seats. It is a
royalex boat that is 15'2" and weighs 56lbs. Has vinyl rails,
It is on clearance for $450 right
now....http://www.madrivercanoe.com/zoom_bo...zon_15_rx.jpg#
Any experience with one/ royalex?
Thanks
Toby

wrote:
Thanks riverman, I will post when I figure it out...

wrote:
Am looking at a boat from Dicks Sporting goods...they have it branded
as a Woodsman by Wilderness. Wilderness is part of Confluence
Watersports which owns Dagger and Mad river, looks like it is made by
Mad River it is a Horizon 15 with wood/nylon webed seats. It is a
royalex boat that is 15'2" and weighs 56lbs. Has vinyl rails,
It is on clearance for $450 right
now....http://www.madrivercanoe.com/zoom_bo...zon_15_rx.jpg#
Any experience with one/ royalex?
Thanks
Toby

Ready for another treatise? :-)
Short version: ABS is usually very good, Mad River can be quite good,
and the price is maybe too good to be true.

Longer version:
'Royalex' is the trade name for one of Uniroyal's particular layouts of
a sheet made from a foam ABS core sandwiched between two ABS layers,
with a protective vinyl coating over the whole thing. Each boat
manufacturer has their own particular formula for the thickness of the
foam core, the thickness or number of sandwiching layers, and the type
of protective coating, but Uniroyal makes them all. When we refer to an
ABS boat, Royalex (or Royalite, a thinner, lighter layup) is what we
are usually referring to.

ABS is a very common boat hull material, and spans the range of
qualities of boats. There are some rather cheap boats made of ABS, some
good midrange ones, and some top of the line ones. The difference in
boat quality is primarily factor of quality of the ABS. Some boats,
like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum
tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad. Older ABS, such as that
used in Blue Hole canoes, was laid up quite thick to give it rigidity,
producing a solid, but heavy, boat. This is currently considered bad,
but once upon a time it was state-of-the-art. Most modern boat
manufacturers, such as Mad River, Old Town, Whitesell, Dagger and
Lincoln, use a layup that is thick enough to be rigid, but not so thick
as to be heavy. Manufacturers are figuring it all out and are getting
good at getting strength without too much weight.

As a hull material, it has tremendous advantages: very durable,
flexible (will pop back into shape if you bend your boat around a
rock), quite impervious to the elements (unless you scrape off the
plastic coating, upon which UV rays will dramatically weaken the ABS),
forgiving (over time or with a little heat applied from a hair dryer,
creases and wrinkles will disappear), and slippery on the rocks
(depending on the covering material). Your grandkids could well inherit
your new ABS boat.

It does have some disadvantages: an ABS boat can be pretty heavy, they
are hell to repair, and once they DO wear off the plastic coating, they
will silently get weaker and weaker from the UV rays. I have an ABS
Blue Hole from the 1970s that is almost unusable from UV rot. On the
other hand, I have gotten several hundred thousand miles out of it and
bought it looking like a pretzel...

So in general, I think ABS is an excellent choice of material for a
beginner. Its as close as you can get to a 'wash and wear' boat; you
can leave it out all winter, it requires almost no care, and can
withstand a lot of abuse.

Now, about the hull: Mad River used to be one of the premiere boat
manufacturers in the world....I believe their owner, Jim Henry, was the
first to make canoes out of ABS. About 7 years ago he sold his company
to Confluence Watersports, and their manufacturing operation moved to
North Carolina. Unfortunately, many of his workers did not want to
relocate from Vermont, so the manufacturing skill and experience did
not move with the company. For the first few years, the quality of MR
boats deteriorated significantly, and eventually Confluence moved
operations to South Carolina, retooled and retrained, and started
improving their turnouts. From what I hear, they have gotten back to
making pretty good boats, but their hulls aren't yet up to the standard
of older 'New Hampshire' hulls. They tend to be a bit heavy, and often
have weak spots and cosmetic blems.

That being said, they still have a good reputation. I own two MRs, but
they are Vermont hulls. I have seen several NC and SC hulls that were
not so great, so look closely for 'blems' in the boat. These will be
any of the following:

- open blisters that look like little pockmarks or craters. They can be
as small as a pencil lead, or as large as a quarter. Don't accept ANY,
as they are places where the ABS core is exposed to the UV rays.
Sometimes they come in clusters, other times they come singly.
-swirly patterns in the plastic covering. These represent different
densities of the plastic, and over time the covering can delaminate at
these places.
-big airbubble blisters. These can be as big as your hand, or even
larger. These aren't fatal, however they are unsightly and show weak
spots in the layup.
-oilcanning (flexing of the bottom of the boat). This is indicitive of
a thin layup, and means the boat is not as rigid as it should be, and
will be a bit harder to handle in current.

Now for the boat itself. What you told us is a bit concerning. By
'Wilderness', I assume you mean "Wilderness Systems", which is owned by
CW. Problem is, Wilderness Systems boats are kayaks and SOTs (sit on
tops)....they don't make canoes (as far as I know). If CW is taking one
of their MR Horizons (which is a fine boat) and relabeling it as a WS
'Woodsman', you need to find out why. It might be a new marketing deal,
or their might be a bad hull that they don't want to put the 'MR' name
on, or you might have some of your facts mixed up. I don't know of any
"Wilderness Woodsman" boat.

But if its a MR Horizon 16' for $450, they are selling it for less than
half its market price. Check it out VERY carefully....it might be an
excellent find, or it might be a lemon in disguise. Personally, I'd be
a bit wary.

Anyone else got input?

--riverman

riverman wrote:
wrote:
Am looking at a boat from Dicks Sporting goods...they have it branded
as a Woodsman by Wilderness. Wilderness is part of Confluence
Watersports which owns Dagger and Mad river, looks like it is made by
Mad River it is a Horizon 15 with wood/nylon webed seats. It is a
royalex boat that is 15'2" and weighs 56lbs. Has vinyl rails,
It is on clearance for $450 right
now....http://www.madrivercanoe.com/zoom_bo...zon_15_rx.jpg#
Any experience with one/ royalex?
Thanks
Toby


Now for the boat itself. What you told us is a bit concerning. By
'Wilderness', I assume you mean "Wilderness Systems", which is owned by
CW. Problem is, Wilderness Systems boats are kayaks and SOTs (sit on
tops)....they don't make canoes (as far as I know). If CW is taking one
of their MR Horizons (which is a fine boat) and relabeling it as a WS
'Woodsman', you need to find out why. It might be a new marketing deal,
or their might be a bad hull that they don't want to put the 'MR' name
on, or you might have some of your facts mixed up. I don't know of any
"Wilderness Woodsman" boat.

But if its a MR Horizon 16' for $450, they are selling it for less than
half its market price. Check it out VERY carefully....it might be an
excellent find, or it might be a lemon in disguise. Personally, I'd be
a bit wary.

Anyone else got input?

--riverman


I found some posts on paddling.net about this particular canoe, from
what I've read the older ones were made by Bell but the newer ones are
made by MR. HTH

Here's the thread, it's from last summer:

http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=501503

Here's a few of the posts:

Answer - Mad River Horizon 15
Posted by: blk on Jun-30-06 8:47 PM (EST)
Dicks Sporting Goods is having an Outdoor Expo in the parking lot
outside their big store in Robinson Township, PA today.

I saw a Woodsman sitting right next to a Mad River Canoe. I saw
identical seat drops, very similar deck plates - with a round circle
stamped ito the plastic in the same size and position where Mad River
puts their rabbit. Checked the HINs, both had the same MICs - WEM -
Confluence Water sports.

Spoke the the Mad River Rep. - Who building these boats for Dicks?
Answer: We do.

BLK


horizon 15
Posted by: Ben7 on Jul-01-06 11:54 PM (EST)
Yeah,
After more checking on the specs I believe that this is a Horizon 15. I
emailed the company to try to get verification, but they didn't
respond. Whoever made it it is a nice canoe at a good price. Also the
"woodsman" lettering peals off very easily. Just get yourself a decal
of a rabbit smoking a pipe and no one will know the difference : ).


woodsman canoe
Posted by: ml1804 on Jul-01-06 8:29 PM (EST)
I've had the same questions about this canoe.

I'm considering purchasing the same canoe myself. After several visits
to the store, and several phone calls to Dicks, here is what I have
found. My first visit, the salesperson had no idea who made the canoe.
When I called on the phone, they told me it was built by wilderness
designs. I called back to verify, and another salesperson told me that
the manufacturer was definately Bell.

They don't have it in stock, and they won't order one until I give them
a 50% deposit. I'm still confused. I'm not sure if this helps.

Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote:
Some boats,
like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum
tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad.

Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a
different material altogether. The second sentence is correct.

Steve

Steve Cramer wrote:
Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote:
Some boats,
like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum
tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad.

Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a
different material altogether. The second sentence is correct.

Steve

You are correct, sir; Colemans are not ABS. I should have saved Coleman
for the treatise on Poly boats. There is also the entire constraint of
which materials are naturally buoyant or not, as well as which ones can
be molded with sharper angles, and also which ones offer the best
puncture resistance.

Meanwhile, what do you guys think of this whole Horizon/Woodsman deal?
It sounds like MR is looking to dump a bunch of Horizon-16s on the
market under the radar. Anyone got any industry contacts to find out
what's up? Sounds to me like CW generated a bunch of hulls that had a
high percentage of blems, so they dumped the whole lot on the market
under a false brand to avoid tarnishing the MR repuation. Maybe they
learned from their Explorer growing pains.


--riverman

riverman wrote:
Steve Cramer wrote:
Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote:
Some boats,
like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum
tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad.

Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a
different material altogether. The second sentence is correct.

Steve

You are correct, sir; Colemans are not ABS. I should have saved Coleman
for the treatise on Poly boats. There is also the entire constraint of
which materials are naturally buoyant or not, as well as which ones can
be molded with sharper angles, and also which ones offer the best
puncture resistance.

Meanwhile, what do you guys think of this whole Horizon/Woodsman deal?
It sounds like MR is looking to dump a bunch of Horizon-16s on the
market under the radar. Anyone got any industry contacts to find out
what's up? Sounds to me like CW generated a bunch of hulls that had a
high percentage of blems, so they dumped the whole lot on the market
under a false brand to avoid tarnishing the MR repuation. Maybe they
learned from their Explorer growing pains.


--riverman

I think I am going to go and look one over thoughly...If it looks good
I am going to pick one up...
Will let you know what I find.

riverman wrote:
Steve Cramer wrote:
Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote:
Some boats,
like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum
tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad.

Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a
different material altogether. The second sentence is correct.

Steve

You are correct, sir; Colemans are not ABS. I should have saved Coleman
for the treatise on Poly boats. There is also the entire constraint of
which materials are naturally buoyant or not, as well as which ones can
be molded with sharper angles, and also which ones offer the best
puncture resistance.

Meanwhile, what do you guys think of this whole Horizon/Woodsman deal?
It sounds like MR is looking to dump a bunch of Horizon-16s on the
market under the radar. Anyone got any industry contacts to find out
what's up? Sounds to me like CW generated a bunch of hulls that had a
high percentage of blems, so they dumped the whole lot on the market
under a false brand to avoid tarnishing the MR repuation. Maybe they
learned from their Explorer growing pains.


--riverman

I think I am going to go and look one over thoughly...If it looks good
I am going to pick one up...
Will let you know what I find.

On Jan 15, 12:51 am, wrote:
riverman wrote:
Steve Cramer wrote:
Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote:
Some boats,
like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum
tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad.

Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a
different material altogether. The second sentence is correct.

Steve

You are correct, sir; Colemans are not ABS. I should have saved Coleman
for the treatise on Poly boats. There is also the entire constraint of
which materials are naturally buoyant or not, as well as which ones can
be molded with sharper angles, and also which ones offer the best
puncture resistance.

Meanwhile, what do you guys think of this whole Horizon/Woodsman deal?
It sounds like MR is looking to dump a bunch of Horizon-16s on the
market under the radar. Anyone got any industry contacts to find out
what's up? Sounds to me like CW generated a bunch of hulls that had a
high percentage of blems, so they dumped the whole lot on the market
under a false brand to avoid tarnishing the MR repuation. Maybe they
learned from their Explorer growing pains.

--riverman

I think I am going to go and look one over thoughly...If it looks good
I am going to pick one up...
Will let you know what I find.


I bought one of the Woodman canoes from Dick's. I didn't look it over
well enough in the store and found a defect in the Royalex when I got
it home. I've talked with the Confluence customer service people and
they say the defect, a 3 x 5 inch depression in the Royalex, was
caused by a misaligned "foot" that helps to form the stem. They claim
that this is cosmetic, and not covered by the warranty. I have seen
three other Woodman canoes with the same defect so I think they are
Mad River seconds. Shame on Dick's sporting goods and Confluence
Water Sports.

Please let me know if you have seen the same thing so I can use the
info in small claims court if it goes that far. Photographs would be
great.

Thanks.

Robert Harris