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The Maf-Stack system.
A year or so ago, I sent Harry some pics of the construction of the
MafStack system being built. I'm very pround of my son. He was one of the main drafting engineers who designed it. Way to go, Son! http://www.verticalyachts.com/index.html |
The Maf-Stack system.
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The Maf-Stack system.
Sure is,Tom. and his company is negotiating building some in France and
Spain. Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On 14 Nov 2006 08:40:08 -0800, wrote: A year or so ago, I sent Harry some pics of the construction of the MafStack system being built. I'm very pround of my son. He was one of the main drafting engineers who designed it. Way to go, Son! http://www.verticalyachts.com/index.html One of the marina's near the Niantic Bay Bridge has one of those systems - pretty impressive. |
The Maf-Stack system.
basskisser wrote:
Are you going to tell me about your son being a "drafting engineer"???? Is he a drafter (technician), or an engineer, or an engineer that prefers to do his own drafting? I know a number of draftsmen; I know a number of engineers who can also do their own drafting, and some who are incompetent with AutoCAD and insist it's the computer's fault. Generally good engineers are proficient with a tool like AutoCAD. But then, some engineers can't use a wrench, either. DSK |
The Maf-Stack system.
DSK wrote: basskisser wrote: Are you going to tell me about your son being a "drafting engineer"???? Is he a drafter (technician), or an engineer, or an engineer that prefers to do his own drafting? I know a number of draftsmen; I know a number of engineers who can also do their own drafting, and some who are incompetent with AutoCAD and insist it's the computer's fault. I do primarily all of my own drafting. I use AutoCad Arch. Desktop and Revit Structure. Generally good engineers are proficient with a tool like AutoCAD. But then, some engineers can't use a wrench, either. I know fellow engineers that can't use AutoCad to save their life. I on the other hand prefer, when time allows to do my own drafting. I understand the task at hand much better and make sure that I get shear connections, moment connections etc. designed correctly. I'm learning Revit structure quite well now, that is an awesome program. But, I'm still wondering about that "drafting engineer" position! |
The Maf-Stack system.
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:55:18 -0500, DSK wrote: basskisser wrote: Are you going to tell me about your son being a "drafting engineer"???? Is he a drafter (technician), or an engineer, or an engineer that prefers to do his own drafting? I know a number of draftsmen; I know a number of engineers who can also do their own drafting, and some who are incompetent with AutoCAD and insist it's the computer's fault. Generally good engineers are proficient with a tool like AutoCAD. But then, some engineers can't use a wrench, either. This was years ago, but the draftsmen/women at Heald Machine Tool were all "drafting engineers" and occasionally recognized errors that the design engineers made. they also did the revisions and revision calculations for machine tooling. A good draftsman will find errors that engineers make, simply because there are sometimes fit problems that the engineer doesn't recognize if he's not doing the drafting. I don't know if that enters into this discussion, but that's what they were called. I've been in the engineering business quite a long time, never heard of one. Were they PE's or Techs? |
The Maf-Stack system.
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On 15 Nov 2006 05:24:30 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:55:18 -0500, DSK wrote: basskisser wrote: Are you going to tell me about your son being a "drafting engineer"???? Is he a drafter (technician), or an engineer, or an engineer that prefers to do his own drafting? I know a number of draftsmen; I know a number of engineers who can also do their own drafting, and some who are incompetent with AutoCAD and insist it's the computer's fault. Generally good engineers are proficient with a tool like AutoCAD. But then, some engineers can't use a wrench, either. This was years ago, but the draftsmen/women at Heald Machine Tool were all "drafting engineers" and occasionally recognized errors that the design engineers made. they also did the revisions and revision calculations for machine tooling. A good draftsman will find errors that engineers make, simply because there are sometimes fit problems that the engineer doesn't recognize if he's not doing the drafting. I don't know if that enters into this discussion, but that's what they were called. I've been in the engineering business quite a long time, never heard of one. Were they PE's or Techs? I'm not sure what you mean by PE - as in Professional Engineer as in certified and licenses as Professional Engineers? If so, then no - PE's weren't required as part of the design process. A lot of the drafting engineers had four year engineering degrees with a smattering of two year Associate degrees. The way it worked was if a particular machine needed a mod or design change for what ever reason, usually it was run by a design engineer or other design type who ran the numbers, drew out some simple designs or mods, then it went to the drafting department who did most of the detail work. And I'm not exactly sure exactly why that means anything anyway. I've worked with a lot of engineers over my professional career that had two year drafting degrees but were still very good engineers. Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. |
The Maf-Stack system.
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:55:18 -0500, DSK wrote: basskisser wrote: Are you going to tell me about your son being a "drafting engineer"???? Is he a drafter (technician), or an engineer, or an engineer that prefers to do his own drafting? I know a number of draftsmen; I know a number of engineers who can also do their own drafting, and some who are incompetent with AutoCAD and insist it's the computer's fault. Generally good engineers are proficient with a tool like AutoCAD. But then, some engineers can't use a wrench, either. This was years ago, but the draftsmen/women at Heald Machine Tool were all "drafting engineers" and occasionally recognized errors that the design engineers made. they also did the revisions and revision calculations for machine tooling. A good draftsman will find errors that engineers make, simply because there are sometimes fit problems that the engineer doesn't recognize if he's not doing the drafting. I don't know if that enters into this discussion, but that's what they were called. I've been in the engineering business quite a long time, never heard of one. Were they PE's or Techs? I'm not sure what you mean by PE - as in Professional Engineer as in certified and licenses as Professional Engineers? If so, then no - PE's weren't required as part of the design process. A lot of the drafting engineers had four year engineering degrees with a smattering of two year Associate degrees. The way it worked was if a particular machine needed a mod or design change for what ever reason, usually it was run by a design engineer or other design type who ran the numbers, drew out some simple designs or mods, then it went to the drafting department who did most of the detail work. And I'm not exactly sure exactly why that means anything anyway. I've worked with a lot of engineers over my professional career that had two year drafting degrees but were still very good engineers. Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. In our business, a registered PE was required to review the specifications and approve the resultant engineering design when the product required a "stamp". Degreed engineers .... mechanical, electrical and software ... had at least a BSME or BSEE. I've lost track of the newer degrees in the software areas. Non-degreed draftspeople were typically referred to as "design engineers" although they usually did not have an engineering degree. When big, central CAD systems first started to become popular, replacing the drafting tables and lead pencils, a group of people emerged that were referred to as "CAD operators". These people were basically prima donnas who drove the degreed but computer illiterate engineers crazy because nobody knew what they were doing. In time as PCs became more powerful and programs like AutoCad and solid modeling software became available that would run on PCs, the big central host CAD systems disappeared, replaced with networked PCs. Now-a-days at my old company, the engineers typically produce their own drawings and the "CAD operator" no longer is required. One thing still drives me .. and others ...crazy though .... particularly with mechanical engineers. For some reason, many have an "invented here" philosophy and refuse to re-use time proven designs. This results in labor cost overruns and usually a new, unproven brain fart for a mechanism or something that has already been proven not to work. The electrical guys aren't as bad. Eisboch |
The Maf-Stack system.
Eisboch wrote: One thing still drives me .. and others ...crazy though .... particularly with mechanical engineers. For some reason, many have an "invented here" philosophy and refuse to re-use time proven designs. This results in labor cost overruns and usually a new, unproven brain fart for a mechanism or something that has already been proven not to work. Absolutely! I've got a group out west that I do a lot of tilt-up structural engineering for. They do slipform huge feed processing mills. If you give them a proven damn good design and they like it, just try to give it to them a second time. They will reject it usually. Sometimes I have to put my foot down, that's for sure. If any of my structure has to attach to their slipform, I have to make a connection that will slide because their mat slab and slipform settles usually 3 or 4 inches immediately because of the weight of the thing vs. soil compression. |
The Maf-Stack system.
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On 15 Nov 2006 07:37:58 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. I went through the process right before I retired and the hoops you had to jump through were incredible - even for somebody with experience and the educational background. It came down to this - it just wasn't worth it. It was for me, but if I was established in structural design before I took it, I probably wouldn't have. My goal was always to be me, maybe a couple of others as consulting engineers. That's what I've done. I like it, it's fast paced, interesting projects, and pays the bills. I was also fortunate to get hooked up with a major industrial design-build company. I don't know how long ago it was that you looked into it, but I'll tell you, I'll bet it isn't any easier! A firm that I collaborate with just had an EIT sit for his GA PE exam, he had an HP 48G graphing calculator, the one I've used for years and years. He couldn't use it for the PE, had to use some other HP that was on the list. And they still had heavy timber design questions!!! |
The Maf-Stack system.
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks...... See above. |
The Maf-Stack system.
Sammy wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks...... See above. Tell the group. What do you know about my intellect? What do you know about my education? What do you know about my career? Or would you like to admit that you posted in nothing but pure ignorance? |
The Maf-Stack system.
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On 15 Nov 2006 07:37:58 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. I went through the process right before I retired and the hoops you had to jump through were incredible - even for somebody with experience and the educational background. It came down to this - it just wasn't worth it. Same conclusion. I passed the EIT first time I took it shortly after college. Since I worked in the Silicon Valley, there were few PE's and you had to work with a PE to get experience signed off. Later when I worked with a company with some PE's was not worth the hassle. |
The Maf-Stack system.
Calif Bill wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On 15 Nov 2006 07:37:58 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. I went through the process right before I retired and the hoops you had to jump through were incredible - even for somebody with experience and the educational background. It came down to this - it just wasn't worth it. Same conclusion. I passed the EIT first time I took it shortly after college. Since I worked in the Silicon Valley, there were few PE's and you had to work with a PE to get experience signed off. Later when I worked with a company with some PE's was not worth the hassle. I passed the EIT first time, then the PE first time. Need four years EIT experience to sit for PE. |
The Maf-Stack system.
"basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On 15 Nov 2006 07:37:58 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. I went through the process right before I retired and the hoops you had to jump through were incredible - even for somebody with experience and the educational background. It came down to this - it just wasn't worth it. Same conclusion. I passed the EIT first time I took it shortly after college. Since I worked in the Silicon Valley, there were few PE's and you had to work with a PE to get experience signed off. Later when I worked with a company with some PE's was not worth the hassle. I passed the EIT first time, then the PE first time. Need four years EIT experience to sit for PE. With PE's signing off on experience. Very few PE's in the computer design world. Most of the voltage is low voltage, and PE even not required in the Biomedical world. When you can get $100k+ a year for designing disk drives and medical equipment, why get a PE? You open yourself up to extra liability. |
The Maf-Stack system.
You're right to all the above, Tom. Seeing that I don't follow him around to know the total accuracy of his work, I can say this. He went to a local Junior college and got his associates in drafting, then went to Tempe Ariz, ( ITT Technical Institute) and graduated from there with an engineering certificate, And a year ago, while working with the Maff-Stack system, he was working in training for his BA in Architectural Practice. But due to getting married and making some life changes and going to Iraq with his Reserve Unit, , He hasn't finished his total courses yet. 5 yrs for a MA is too long, so he's going to settle for the BA.then maybe an MA down the road. meanwhile, on this project, he did extensive work in the Ft. Lauderdale area correcting and making design changes to the MafStack system there, and worked as a "drafting engineer" . however in the office, he DID a lot of work on the System as a "Design Engineer" , but in Ft. Lauderdale working on location, he was a "Drafting Engineer". And will soon begin the task of working to fulfill his architectural degree. He's well versed with the AutoCAD CAD/CAM as well as old school drafting boards. Even though he doesn't have any call or reason to use a draft board, he still does some fun and minor projects on it, just to keep what he calls "the touch". He says, it's kind of like using a slide ruler. Nice to know how, even if you never do use it. That's pretty well it, in a nutshell. Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:55:18 -0500, DSK wrote: basskisser wrote: Are you going to tell me about your son being a "drafting engineer"???? Is he a drafter (technician), or an engineer, or an engineer that prefers to do his own drafting? I know a number of draftsmen; I know a number of engineers who can also do their own drafting, and some who are incompetent with AutoCAD and insist it's the computer's fault. Generally good engineers are proficient with a tool like AutoCAD. But then, some engineers can't use a wrench, either. This was years ago, but the draftsmen/women at Heald Machine Tool were all "drafting engineers" and occasionally recognized errors that the design engineers made. they also did the revisions and revision calculations for machine tooling. I don't know if that enters into this discussion, but that's what they were called. |
The Maf-Stack system.
Calif Bill wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On 15 Nov 2006 07:37:58 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. I went through the process right before I retired and the hoops you had to jump through were incredible - even for somebody with experience and the educational background. It came down to this - it just wasn't worth it. Same conclusion. I passed the EIT first time I took it shortly after college. Since I worked in the Silicon Valley, there were few PE's and you had to work with a PE to get experience signed off. Later when I worked with a company with some PE's was not worth the hassle. I passed the EIT first time, then the PE first time. Need four years EIT experience to sit for PE. With PE's signing off on experience. Very few PE's in the computer design world. Most of the voltage is low voltage, and PE even not required in the Biomedical world. Oh, I'm sure! If you are employed by someone else, there's really no reason to be a PE. When you can get $100k+ a year for designing disk drives and medical equipment, why get a PE? You open yourself up to extra liability. Bingo. After I got my GA PE I stayed with the company I did my EIT with, but never stamped a single drawing with MY stamp. Same reason, why risk it for someone else? |
The Maf-Stack system.
"basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On 15 Nov 2006 07:37:58 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. I went through the process right before I retired and the hoops you had to jump through were incredible - even for somebody with experience and the educational background. It came down to this - it just wasn't worth it. Same conclusion. I passed the EIT first time I took it shortly after college. Since I worked in the Silicon Valley, there were few PE's and you had to work with a PE to get experience signed off. Later when I worked with a company with some PE's was not worth the hassle. I passed the EIT first time, then the PE first time. Need four years EIT experience to sit for PE. With PE's signing off on experience. Very few PE's in the computer design world. Most of the voltage is low voltage, and PE even not required in the Biomedical world. Oh, I'm sure! If you are employed by someone else, there's really no reason to be a PE. Even when I did consulting, PE was not required. |
The Maf-Stack system.
Calif Bill wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On 15 Nov 2006 07:37:58 -0800, "basskisser" wrote: Sometimes we are over enamored with education when long time practical experience can substitute. Some PE's I've worked with are dumber than rocks and some drafting personnel worth their weight in gold. Trouble is, most engineers have very little drafting, CAD experience, and a lot more don't care to have any. I've got a guy who does my overload drafting, and has a two year degree in CAD drafting from a community college. He's good. I've got him so that he can do simple design calcs, etc. Any PE that has passed the exam, at least structural, can't be dumb, it's a pretty hard exam, and one that most don't pass the first time. I went through the process right before I retired and the hoops you had to jump through were incredible - even for somebody with experience and the educational background. It came down to this - it just wasn't worth it. Same conclusion. I passed the EIT first time I took it shortly after college. Since I worked in the Silicon Valley, there were few PE's and you had to work with a PE to get experience signed off. Later when I worked with a company with some PE's was not worth the hassle. I passed the EIT first time, then the PE first time. Need four years EIT experience to sit for PE. With PE's signing off on experience. Very few PE's in the computer design world. Most of the voltage is low voltage, and PE even not required in the Biomedical world. Oh, I'm sure! If you are employed by someone else, there's really no reason to be a PE. Even when I did consulting, PE was not required. It is for structural, simply because you can't get anything permitted without it. Which, by the way, is getting to be a pain because of the bureaucracy. Take Florida, for example. Most jurisdictions want NINE sets and they don't except a wet stamp, needs to be crimped. I HATE signing then crimping a 100 sheets of drawings! |
The Maf-Stack system.
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The Maf-Stack system.
wrote: You're right to all the above, Tom. Seeing that I don't follow him around to know the total accuracy of his work, I can say this. He went to a local Junior college and got his associates in drafting, then went to Tempe Ariz, ( ITT Technical Institute) and graduated from there with an engineering certificate, And a year ago, while working with the Maff-Stack system, he was working in training for his BA in Architectural Practice. But due to getting married and making some life changes and going to Iraq with his Reserve Unit, , He hasn't finished his total courses yet. 5 yrs for a MA is too long, so he's going to settle for the BA.then maybe an MA down the road. meanwhile, on this project, he did extensive work in the Ft. Lauderdale area correcting and making design changes to the MafStack system there, and worked as a "drafting engineer" . however in the office, he DID a lot of work on the System as a "Design Engineer" , but in Ft. Lauderdale working on location, he was a "Drafting Engineer". And will soon begin the task of working to fulfill his architectural degree. He's well versed with the AutoCAD CAD/CAM as well as old school drafting boards. Even though he doesn't have any call or reason to use a draft board, he still does some fun and minor projects on it, just to keep what he calls "the touch". He says, it's kind of like using a slide ruler. Nice to know how, even if you never do use it. That's pretty well it, in a nutshell. By the way, according to ITT's website, there is no "engineering certificate". Care to try again? http://www.itt-tech.edu/programs/ |
The Maf-Stack system.
When I went to his graduation he recieved an engineering certificate.
Maybe the cirriculum has changed. basskisser wrote: wrote: You're right to all the above, Tom. Seeing that I don't follow him around to know the total accuracy of his work, I can say this. He went to a local Junior college and got his associates in drafting, then went to Tempe Ariz, ( ITT Technical Institute) and graduated from there with an engineering certificate, And a year ago, while working with the Maff-Stack system, he was working in training for his BA in Architectural Practice. But due to getting married and making some life changes and going to Iraq with his Reserve Unit, , He hasn't finished his total courses yet. 5 yrs for a MA is too long, so he's going to settle for the BA.then maybe an MA down the road. meanwhile, on this project, he did extensive work in the Ft. Lauderdale area correcting and making design changes to the MafStack system there, and worked as a "drafting engineer" . however in the office, he DID a lot of work on the System as a "Design Engineer" , but in Ft. Lauderdale working on location, he was a "Drafting Engineer". And will soon begin the task of working to fulfill his architectural degree. He's well versed with the AutoCAD CAD/CAM as well as old school drafting boards. Even though he doesn't have any call or reason to use a draft board, he still does some fun and minor projects on it, just to keep what he calls "the touch". He says, it's kind of like using a slide ruler. Nice to know how, even if you never do use it. That's pretty well it, in a nutshell. By the way, according to ITT's website, there is no "engineering certificate". Care to try again? http://www.itt-tech.edu/programs/ |
The Maf-Stack system.
|
The Maf-Stack system.
"basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: When I went to his graduation he recieved an engineering certificate. Maybe the cirriculum has changed. One of the guys I use learned CAD at ITT somewhere in CA. They have a CAD program that results in an associates degree (AAS). There are a couple of different Engineering Technology Certificate" programs. Both ITT and Community Colleges in California offer them. |
The Maf-Stack system.
Calif Bill wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: When I went to his graduation he recieved an engineering certificate. Maybe the cirriculum has changed. One of the guys I use learned CAD at ITT somewhere in CA. They have a CAD program that results in an associates degree (AAS). There are a couple of different Engineering Technology Certificate" programs. Both ITT and Community Colleges in California offer them. ITT Technical Institute does not offer any "engineering Technology Certificate". I agree that a lot of CC's do, but ITT does NOT. I know someone who has an AAS from there, and also here is their curriculum: http://www.itt-tech.edu/programs/ They don't offer anything at ANY of their campuses other than that. |
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