![]() |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
My local club seems utterly confused by ACA and their proposed rate
increases. Is this situation common to all paddling clubs? |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
|
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Brian Nystrom wrote
[...] Most of the other clubs in our area have eschewed membership in the ACA PAC program and just go it alone. They rely on the principles of the "Common Adventure Model" for liability protection. To date AFAIK, none of the clubs or their members have been sued for anything that has happened at any of their club functions, trips, etc., primarily because their safety record is exemplary, as is ours. With the cost of insurance going through the roof, I suspect that CAM is the wave of the future. The question of insurance is the major issue. Our current club officers are very nervous about going to a waver scheme -- feeling that they would not provide any reliable protection for the club or the paddle leaders. I don't know if paddling is any more hazardous than playing baseball. What do baseball clubs use? |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
|
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Well, you might try our clubs model. We decided to forego the PAC
membership since most of it wasn't very relavent and instead became an Affiliate member. No real advantage but it still gets you access to the insurance program. Instead of trying to get every member of the club to join, we just charge the event membership to anyone that doesn't have an ACA number. The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor, you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired. We don't insure any club trips, although one club that I belong does sometimes. As a SWR instructor, I follow liability issues fairly closely. As far as I or my fellow instructors can find, there has never been an incident that involved a club trip and an injury that resulted in a lawsuit. IMO, Liability in paddling clubs is an issue that tends to get blown way out of porportion. Larry On Oct 28, 8:35*am, Brian Nystrom wrote: Disclaimer: I'm a member of one of the largest PAC clubs in the US, but the opinions expressed below are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of other club members or officers. That said... wrote: My local club seems utterly confused by ACA and their proposed rate increases. Is this situation common to all paddling clubs?Yeah, pretty much. It seems to me that they must have hired a former IRS employee as a consultant with the mandate to "make the fee structure as confusing as humanly possible". Frankly, when I see something this unnecessarily complex, it makes me suspicious that the real motive is to try to conceal the true cost from the clubs until it's too late. It's not as if the ACA has been above concealing things from their member club in the past. Remember the insurance debacle a couple of years ago? The ACA is one of the most unprofessional, inefficient, bush-league organizations I've ever dealt with. It seems that every year they come up with grandiose plans for club services that never come to fruition. Heck, it's taken them YEARS to get to the point where they can get membership cards out in a reasonably timely manner, yet now they think they can manage all of our membership mailings and fee collection? "Sure, sign me up and I'll take some of that swamp land you're selling too! What's that, my check is in the mail? Okee doke!" Of course, they have no trouble at all reaching deeper into our pockets every year, pretty much without fail. However, there's a limit to how much the ACA is going to be able to get out of the PAC "cash cow". IMO, the only thing they provide to clubs that's of any real value is liability insurance (unless you're into whitewater, Paddler magazine is a waste of good trees) and I'm not sure that it's worth what it's costing us now. We've been forced to increase our membership dues substantially over the past few years, due entirely to increases in what we have to pay the ACA. That has undoubtedly cost us members to other local, non-ACA clubs and we're probably one fee increase away from reaching the breaking point at which point we'll just drop our ACA affiliation. If they ever make their new Trip Leader certification mandatory, that will be the last straw for sure. Most of the other clubs in our area have eschewed membership in the ACA PAC program and just go it alone. They rely on the principles of the "Common Adventure Model" for liability protection. To date AFAIK, none of the clubs or their members have been sued for anything that has happened at any of their club functions, trips, etc., primarily because their safety record is exemplary, as is ours. With the cost of insurance going through the roof, I suspect that CAM is the wave of the future. Is anyone from the ACA listening out there??? |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Larry C wrote:
Well, you might try our clubs model. We decided to forego the PAC membership since most of it wasn't very relavent and instead became an Affiliate member. No real advantage but it still gets you access to the insurance program. Instead of trying to get every member of the club to join, we just charge the event membership to anyone that doesn't have an ACA number. The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor, you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired. I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've heard of several similar situations. We don't insure any club trips, although one club that I belong does sometimes. As a SWR instructor, I follow liability issues fairly closely. As far as I or my fellow instructors can find, there has never been an incident that involved a club trip and an injury that resulted in a lawsuit. IMO, Liability in paddling clubs is an issue that tends to get blown way out of porportion. I agree. Our club has gone through a long and painful process of dealing with problems caused by a few "Chicken Little" types that scared us into getting overly worked up over risk/liability, despite the fact that we had never had a problem. While there have been some positive changes made due to the analysis we performed, overall it's done a lot of damage to the club. Ironically, the people that screamed the loudest about risk/liability have all left the club, leaving others to clean up their mess. |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
Several of the clubs I'm affiliated with have shelved the concept of
"trip leader". They are now called "trip coordinators" and their formal responsibility ends when (1) the trip has been publicized in such a way that any member who takes the trouble can learn about it, (2) a rendezvous place and time has been established, and (3) the shuttle has been organized and run. When I organize a trip, after discharging these responsibilities, I ask if anyone wants to volunteer to be probe boat and if two people will volunteer to be sweep team (I don't organize trips on rivers where I am not willing to be either probe or sweep, so the worst case is that I probe and the rest straggle randomly behind). Then I gather the group together, count boats, ANNOUNCE THE COUNT so that everyone (this is my story if I ever have to tell it to a jury) shares the responsibility for keeping count of the participants, and briefly go over the simple paddle- and whistle-signals, make sure everyone knows who the probe and sweeps are, and tell them that if they fail to keep between the probe and sweeps they cannot expect any help from the group. Sometimes, if it is a large group and includes paddlers whose skill-level I don't know, I will ask everyone to pair off into buddy-teams so that if the count ever comes up short everyone can check for his buddy's presence, and we will quickly know who is missing, so that we can then get on to "who saw him last, and where?" Then, I count boats all-too-frequently all the way down the river. But I do all this in the capacity of officious busybody, not as "trip leader". -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA .. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net .. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll .. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu .. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters Brian Nystrom wrote: wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote [...] Most of the other clubs in our area have eschewed membership in the ACA PAC program and just go it alone. They rely on the principles of the "Common Adventure Model" for liability protection. To date AFAIK, none of the clubs or their members have been sued for anything that has happened at any of their club functions, trips, etc., primarily because their safety record is exemplary, as is ours. With the cost of insurance going through the roof, I suspect that CAM is the wave of the future. The question of insurance is the major issue. Our current club officers are very nervous about going to a waver scheme -- feeling that they would not provide any reliable protection for the club or the paddle leaders. The issue is how your trips are structured. If you have defined leaders, they will have increased liability. If your trips are "let's get together and paddle" affairs with no formal structure, they fall under the auspices of the CAM. As for your club officers, depending on how many there are and how many members you have, it may be cheaper to just buy a personal liability policy for each officer than to pay for ACA insurance. I don't know if paddling is any more hazardous than playing baseball. What do baseball clubs use? I don't know. I assume that they must have some form of insurance, but being a more mainstream activity, there are probably several sources for it, unlike with kayaking. |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
Legally, I doubt that the title matters much. Even as "trip
coordinator" you will have acquired certain duties, but as long as you are within the realm of "reasonable and prudent", the liability just isn't an issue. The real reason that liability isn't much of a concern is that most clubs and very few members have deep enough pockets to make lawsuits very attractive. In some sense, the availablity of liability insurance on a club trip probably increases the likelyhood of being sued, although I still can't find a case of a paddling club being sued by a member or participate. To respond to Brian. 1. I've had pretty good luck on the whitewater side. Most of the instructors are very competent and pretty good teachers. I'm only certified in SWR, and while I sometimes disagree with subject matter and teach methods with some instructors, I have a lot of respect for the ability of every ACA SWR instructor I've met. We went through something similar to what your club experienced in another club I paddle with on occasion. A group concerned with liability decided that we needed to "Certify" trip leaders. Unfortunately, the people that proposed this rule weren't leading trips and those of us that did were often not local to the main body of the club and didn't really feel like driving 4 hours to take a seminar to teach us something we had been doing for years, especially since it was being taught in many cases by people that had little experience leading trips. I refused to take the seminar for years, I'm a certified SWR instructor, if that ain't good enough then I just won't lead any trips. I've tried to get that changed for a number of years, but with no success so far. Nowdays I paddle mainly with a highly disorganized but fun club. Larry On Oct 31, 9:51*am, "Oci-One Kanubi" wrote: Several of the clubs I'm affiliated with have shelved the concept of "trip leader". *They are now called "trip coordinators" and their formal responsibility ends when (1) the trip has been publicized in such a way that any member who takes the trouble can learn about it, (2) a rendezvous place and time has been established, and (3) the shuttle has been organized and run. When I organize a trip, after discharging these responsibilities, I ask if anyone wants to volunteer to be probe boat and if two people will volunteer to be sweep team (I don't organize trips on rivers where I am not willing to be either probe or sweep, so the worst case is that I probe and the rest straggle randomly behind). *Then I gather the group together, count boats, ANNOUNCE THE COUNT so that everyone (this is my story if I ever have to tell it to a jury) shares the responsibility for keeping count of the participants, and briefly go over the simple paddle- and whistle-signals, make sure everyone knows who the probe and sweeps are, and tell them that if they fail to keep between the probe and sweeps they cannot expect any help from the group. *Sometimes, if it is a large group and includes paddlers whose skill-level I don't know, I will ask everyone to pair off into buddy-teams so that if the count ever comes up short everyone can check for his buddy's presence, and we will quickly know who is missing, so that we can then get on to "who saw him last, and where?" *Then, I count boats all-too-frequently all the way down the river. *But I do all this in the capacity of officious busybody, not as "trip leader". -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Winston-Salem, NC, USA . * * * * * * * * * *rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . * * Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . * * * * * * * * * * rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters Brian Nystrom wrote: wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote [...] Most of the other clubs in our area have eschewed membership in the ACA PAC program and just go it alone. They rely on the principles of the "Common Adventure Model" for liability protection. To date AFAIK, none of the clubs or their members have been sued for anything that has happened at any of their club functions, trips, etc., primarily because their safety record is exemplary, as is ours. With the cost of insurance going through the roof, I suspect that CAM is the wave of the future. The question of insurance is the major issue. Our current club officers are very nervous about going to a waver scheme -- feeling that they would not provide any reliable protection for the club or the paddle leaders. The issue is how your trips are structured. If you have defined leaders, they will have increased liability. If your trips are "let's get together and paddle" affairs with no formal structure, they fall under the auspices of the CAM. As for your club officers, depending on how many there are and how many members you have, it may be cheaper to just buy a personal liability policy for each officer than to pay for ACA insurance. I don't know if paddling is any more hazardous than playing baseball. What do baseball clubs use? I don't know. I assume that they must have some form of insurance, but being a more mainstream activity, there are probably several sources for it, unlike with kayaking.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
Larry C wrote:
Legally, I doubt that the title matters much. Even as "trip coordinator" you will have acquired certain duties, but as long as you are within the realm of "reasonable and prudent", the liability just isn't an issue. The real reason that liability isn't much of a concern is that most clubs and very few members have deep enough pockets to make lawsuits very attractive. In some sense, the availability of liability insurance on a club trip probably increases the likelihood of being sued, although I still can't find a case of a paddling club being sued by a member or participate. I agree with you and fortunately, it's never happened to us. I only know of a couple of injuries in the club's history and neither of those was during an "official" activity. Neither was particularly serious and neither person required professional medical care. To respond to Brian. 1. I've had pretty good luck on the whitewater side. Most of the instructors are very competent and pretty good teachers. I'm only certified in SWR, and while I sometimes disagree with subject matter and teach methods with some instructors, I have a lot of respect for the ability of every ACA SWR instructor I've met. I can't comment on the whitewater side of things, since I'm not into it, but I would think that the nature of the activity dictates that to be an instructor, one has to possess significant skills. I expected that on the sea kayaking side, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Apparently, one can be certified as an "open water" instructor without actually paddling on anything other than flat water, unless that's changed in the last three years. Apparently, there is no requirement to demonstrate skills in actual, typical open-water conditions, which is an utterly outrageous situation. In my mind, "open water" means one needs to be able to deal with wind, waves, rocks, surf and other boat traffic. We went through something similar to what your club experienced in another club I paddle with on occasion. A group concerned with liability decided that we needed to "Certify" trip leaders. Unfortunately, the people that proposed this rule weren't leading trips and those of us that did were often not local to the main body of the club and didn't really feel like driving 4 hours to take a seminar to teach us something we had been doing for years, especially since it was being taught in many cases by people that had little experience leading trips. I refused to take the seminar for years, I'm a certified SWR instructor, if that ain't good enough then I just won't lead any trips. I've tried to get that changed for a number of years, but with no success so far. We actually have our own trip leader training program that's designed the suit the needs of the club. It's quite different from ACA/BCU training and isn't meant to be a substitute for other instruction. We concentrate on organization, situational awareness, teamwork and weather assessment, which are not the types of skills taught in most paddler training. The only "hard skills" we teach are tows, rescues, close-in boat control strokes, launching/landing, etc. As I like to put it, our program is not designed to produce great paddlers, it's designed to produce great paddling experiences for the trip participants. This program suits the needs of the club and is actually more extensive (40 hours) than the training the guides for local businesses receive. There was a cadre of people in the club who pushed hard to make ACA/BCU training mandatory for trip leaders. Some of the same people started the risk/liability debacle. We hired a couple of professional risk consultants (one of which is a well-known paddler/kayak store owner/attorney) who ultimately gave us some very good advice, much of which has been implemented. However, it nearly tore the club apart, many members left and our trip calendar has suffered greatly. We're still in the process of recovering from it. Perhaps the best advice they gave us was that whether we implemented their recommendations or not, we should keep doing what we're doing, as it's good for the paddling community as a whole. Nowdays I paddle mainly with a highly disorganized but fun club. I see more and more of that, and it seems to be a natural progression, especially among "serious" paddlers. As paddlers become more experienced and skilled, it's natural that they want to paddle with their peers. You can't push your personal limits when you're leading a bunch of beginners on a trip. This leads to another observation of mine, which is that clubs are at their best when they're serving the needs of beginner-intermediate paddlers. They're the ones who need the structure and the increased safety that results from it. They benefit most from pool/lake skills sessions, navigation clinics and other typical club skill-building activities. While it's obviously necessary to have skilled paddlers in a club to lead and teach the "newbies", there's often not much in the way of activities for them specifically, as the risk of higher level trips can be too high to accept. Most of the more experienced paddlers in our club stay with it for the purposes of giving back to the sport what others gave to them when they were neophytes. On Oct 31, 9:51�am, "Oci-One Kanubi" wrote: Several of the clubs I'm affiliated with have shelved the concept of "trip leader". �They are now called "trip coordinators" and their formal responsibility ends when (1) the trip has been publicized in such a way that any member who takes the trouble can learn about it, (2) a rendezvous place and time has been established, and (3) the shuttle has been organized and run. When I organize a trip, after discharging these responsibilities, I ask if anyone wants to volunteer to be probe boat and if two people will volunteer to be sweep team (I don't organize trips on rivers where I am not willing to be either probe or sweep, so the worst case is that I probe and the rest straggle randomly behind). �Then I gather the group together, count boats, ANNOUNCE THE COUNT so that everyone (this is my story if I ever have to tell it to a jury) shares the responsibility for keeping count of the participants, and briefly go over the simple paddle- and whistle-signals, make sure everyone knows who the probe and sweeps are, and tell them that if they fail to keep between the probe and sweeps they cannot expect any help from the group. �Sometimes, if it is a large group and includes paddlers whose skill-level I don't know, I will ask everyone to pair off into buddy-teams so that if the count ever comes up short everyone can check for his buddy's presence, and we will quickly know who is missing, so that we can then get on to "who saw him last, and where?" �Then, I count boats all-too-frequently all the way down the river. �But I do all this in the capacity of officious busybody, not as "trip leader". -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Winston-Salem, NC, USA . � � � � � � � � � �rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . � � Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . � � � � � � � � � � rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters Brian Nystrom wrote: wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote [...] Most of the other clubs in our area have eschewed membership in the ACA PAC program and just go it alone. They rely on the principles of the "Common Adventure Model" for liability protection. To date AFAIK, none of the clubs or their members have been sued for anything that has happened at any of their club functions, trips, etc., primarily because their safety record is exemplary, as is ours. With the cost of insurance going through the roof, I suspect that CAM is the wave of the future. The question of insurance is the major issue. Our current club officers are very nervous about going to a waver scheme -- feeling that they would not provide any reliable protection for the club or the paddle leaders. The issue is how your trips are structured. If you have defined leaders, they will have increased liability. If your trips are "let's get together and paddle" affairs with no formal structure, they fall under the auspices of the CAM. As for your club officers, depending on how many there are and how many members you have, it may be cheaper to just buy a personal liability policy for each officer than to pay for ACA insurance. I don't know if paddling is any more hazardous than playing baseball. What do baseball clubs use? I don't know. I assume that they must have some form of insurance, but being a more mainstream activity, there are probably several sources for it, unlike with kayaking.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
I've been involved in 3 different lawsuits - 2 of which went to court
and none of which involved paddling. As long as a paddling club doesn't charge to take trips, classes, whatever - just has a general membership fee and none of the officers or directors has any monetary investment, you're fine without insurance. The real story is that there is no deep pockets to sue. The club has a few hundred members paying maybe $20 each to belong. No lawyer is going to take a case for that money. There is also no people to sue in a club situtation. Sure you could try to sue the directors, officers, trip leaders, etc but in reality that dog won't hunt. And lawyers know it. People are only too happy to sit on a jury and award huge payouts when an insurance carrier or company is paying out the tab. Lawyers know that. So go ahead - get club insurance - you're more likely to get a lawsuit by buying insurance than by just going without as a volunteer organization put together for recreation of its members and no profit motive. Dick Pierce, a paddler and Professor of Law at George Washington University, pretty much agrees with my assessment though he won't tout it publically. Read a book called "The Terrible Truth About Lawyers" and you'll get a better understanding about why volunteer membership clubs absolutely do not need liabiality insurance. |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
What Kathy said!
"Mothra" wrote in message oups.com... I've been involved in 3 different lawsuits - 2 of which went to court and none of which involved paddling. As long as a paddling club doesn't charge to take trips, classes, whatever - just has a general membership fee and none of the officers or directors has any monetary investment, you're fine without insurance. The real story is that there is no deep pockets to sue. The club has a few hundred members paying maybe $20 each to belong. No lawyer is going to take a case for that money. There is also no people to sue in a club situtation. Sure you could try to sue the directors, officers, trip leaders, etc but in reality that dog won't hunt. And lawyers know it. People are only too happy to sit on a jury and award huge payouts when an insurance carrier or company is paying out the tab. Lawyers know that. So go ahead - get club insurance - you're more likely to get a lawsuit by buying insurance than by just going without as a volunteer organization put together for recreation of its members and no profit motive. Dick Pierce, a paddler and Professor of Law at George Washington University, pretty much agrees with my assessment though he won't tout it publically. Read a book called "The Terrible Truth About Lawyers" and you'll get a better understanding about why volunteer membership clubs absolutely do not need liabiality insurance. |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Brian Nystrom wrote:
Larry C wrote: The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor, you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired. I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've heard of several similar situations. Brian, go to http://www.acanet.org/instruction/kayak_instruction.lasso and read the syllabi for the various ACA courses. There seem to be many stages of classes, especially in ocean kayak (which is essentially unknown territory for me, represented by all those articles in "Canoe & Kayak" and "Paddler" which I irritably skip). Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. Given that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport, as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those skills. Think of it as the "one-room schoolhouse" model, since, in the scope and scale of society that's kinda what our clubs are. The fourth-graders teach the first-graders to count. The sixth-graders teach the second-graders addition and subtraction. The seventh graders teach multiplication and division, the eighth-graders teach fractions. the 11th-graders teach geometry, and the 12-graders teach algebra. So, perhaps, in the progression of skills and classes set up by the ACA, the specific instructors you have observed are actually acting within the parameters of their certifications, even though they might be highly uncomfortable if asked to exceed those parameters. And always remember that, absent a few idiots who try to make a living by turning a recreational activity into a job, ours is essentially a VOLUNTEER activity and the standards are commensurately... uh, "flexible"? [1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every paddler will learn? How twisted is that? ACA oughta be giving FREE memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified then give up the time to teach safety and rescue. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA .. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net .. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll .. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu .. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
On Oct 31, 2:32 pm, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Larry C wrote: To respond to Brian. 1. I've had pretty good luck on the whitewater side. Most of the instructors are very competent and pretty good teachers. I'm only certified in SWR, and while I sometimes disagree with subject matter and teach methods with some instructors, I have a lot of respect for the ability of every ACA SWR instructor I've met. I can't comment on the whitewater side of things, since I'm not into it, but I would think that the nature of the activity dictates that to be an instructor, one has to possess significant skills. I expected that on the sea kayaking side, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Apparently, one can be certified as an "open water" instructor without actually paddling on anything other than flat water, unless that's changed in the last three years. Apparently, there is no requirement to demonstrate skills in actual, typical open-water conditions, which is an utterly outrageous situation. In my mind, "open water" means one needs to be able to deal with wind, waves, rocks, surf and other boat traffic. Brian, it's clear that you're no fan of the ACA, and you're not alone, but exactly where do you get the information to back up those outrageous claims? You've met an incompetent instructor? One? Maybe two? Big sample to generalize from. I can tell you from first hand candidate and evaluator experience going back several years that people can and do get denied Open Water and WW certs if they can't perform, and that the standards do require actual performance of the skills. My experience covers canoe, kayak, WW, and Touring, and I've found the bar to be set pretty high. YMMV. Steve |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
I never have understood the PA deal. Georgia Canoeing Association is an
affilitate. We use ACA insurance for races and instruction, and our trips are waivered Common Adventurer events with a "Trip Coordinator," who may or may not be an "officious busybody." Atlanta Kayakers, on the other hand, has trip "hosts" who suggest a venue; that's the extent of their administration. No waivers, no insurance, no officers, no dues, no bylaws, just a web site and paddling events. Steve |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
|
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
Oci-One Kanubi wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote: Larry C wrote: The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor, you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired. I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've heard of several similar situations. Brian, go to http://www.acanet.org/instruction/kayak_instruction.lasso and read the syllabi for the various ACA courses. There seem to be many stages of classes, especially in ocean kayak (which is essentially unknown territory for me, represented by all those articles in "Canoe & Kayak" and "Paddler" which I irritably skip). Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. Given that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport, as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those skills. Think of it as the "one-room schoolhouse" model, since, in the scope and scale of society that's kinda what our clubs are. The fourth-graders teach the first-graders to count. The sixth-graders teach the second-graders addition and subtraction. The seventh graders teach multiplication and division, the eighth-graders teach fractions. the 11th-graders teach geometry, and the 12-graders teach algebra. So, perhaps, in the progression of skills and classes set up by the ACA, the specific instructors you have observed are actually acting within the parameters of their certifications, even though they might be highly uncomfortable if asked to exceed those parameters. And always remember that, absent a few idiots who try to make a living by turning a recreational activity into a job, ours is essentially a VOLUNTEER activity and the standards are commensurately... uh, "flexible"? [1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every paddler will learn? How twisted is that? ACA oughta be giving FREE memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified then give up the time to teach safety and rescue. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA . rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== Brian Nystrom wrote: Larry C wrote: The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor, you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired. I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've heard of several similar situations. Brian, go to http://www.acanet.org/instruction/kayak_instruction.lasso and read the syllabi for the various ACA courses. There seem to be many stages of classes, especially in ocean kayak (which is essentially unknown territory for me, represented by all those articles in "Canoe & Kayak" and "Paddler" which I irritably skip). Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. Given that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport, as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those skills. Think of it as the "one-room schoolhouse" model, since, in the scope and scale of society that's kinda what our clubs are. The fourth-graders teach the first-graders to count. The sixth-graders teach the second-graders addition and subtraction. The seventh graders teach multiplication and division, the eighth-graders teach fractions. the 11th-graders teach geometry, and the 12-graders teach algebra. So, perhaps, in the progression of skills and classes set up by the ACA, the specific instructors you have observed are actually acting within the parameters of their certifications, even though they might be highly uncomfortable if asked to exceed those parameters. And always remember that, absent a few idiots who try to make a living by turning a recreational activity into a job, ours is essentially a VOLUNTEER activity and the standards are commensurately... uh, "flexible"? I agree with what you're saying with one exception; it seems to me that it's folly to "certify" people with marginal skills, as they may take that certification and try to use it to do things that they're not really qualified for. I absolutely agree that training is valuable and the more trained paddlers there are on the water, the better it is for the entire paddling community. That's one of the reasons that we don't require people who take our trip leader training course to actually lead trips. What we try to do is to teach people the necessary skills and lead them to a realistic evaluation of their abilities and deficiencies. We actively encourage people to go on to take other types of training. Our basic philosophy is that trained trip participants are nearly as important/beneficial as trained trip leaders. [1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every paddler will learn? How twisted is that? ACA oughta be giving FREE memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified then give up the time to teach safety and rescue. I have some friends who are ACA coaches that share your annoyance. |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
I'll have to disagree with this statement. From my experience, the
great majority of ACA certified instructors are "outdoor professionals", camp counselors, guides, heads of school outdoor programs, etc. I know that CCC has a very strong volunteer ACA training program, but outside of that I think you will find that most ACA instuctors have monetary reasons to maintain the training and the insurance. It's surprising how many of the SWR instructor candidates take the course and never teach. Larry Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. *Given that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport, as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those skills. [1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every paddler will learn? *How twisted is that? *ACA oughta be giving FREE memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified then give up the time to teach safety and rescue. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Winston-Salem, NC, USA . * * * * * * * * * *rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . * * Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . * * * * * * * * * * rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Could be. My view is fairly parochial, since I have had nothing to do
with any ACA instructors (or any kind of instruction since I took a couple of NOC clinics in the early '90s) except for our little cadre of volunteer SW S&R instructors in the DC area. We were real lucky there. Jeff Davis, the Safety chairman for the Canoe Cruisers' Ass'n, got himself certified by Charlie as an IT. Jeff's policy as CCA Safety chair was to present threee two-day classes each summer, open to CCA members only, and charge only a $15 equipment fee. For that fee each student got a copy of Charlie Walbridge & Wayne Sundmacher's book, a prusic loop that he made in class, and two days of instruction. Further, any student was welcome to return for a refresher class, absolutely free, if he would act as an assistant and perform safety overwatch during the in-water units of instruction (this meant Jeff always had upstream- and downstream-safety without sending any of the students out of hearing distance). Well, sometime in the mid-'90s my friend Bob Bonnet and I started to make a habit of assisting Jeff at all three of his summer classes[1], and once Jeff became certified as an IT he started using his safety classes as Development and Certification workshops -- sorta OJT for us candidate instructors. After Jeff certified me and Bob as SW S&R Instructors I became safety chair of the Monocacy Canoe Club, and I decided to leverage Jeff's cartification: I got the MCC steering committee to agree to sponsor up to four MCC members each year to the tune of a $25 membership in the CCA and the $15 equipment fee -- $40 each -- to attend Jeff's classes enough times to become certified instructors. I kept hinting to Jeff that he should set up some kind of IT program within his club, the CCA, but he never did. Nevertheless, as a result of this MCC program, by 2002 or so we had 20 or 25 certified SW S&R instructors in the Baltimore-Washington area, and the three clubs (CCA, MCC, and Greater Baltimore CC) were presenting, amongst them, six classes per summer, each of which could have two or more certified instructors, and some of which accepted as many as 20 students. For the MCC safety classes, I arranged to have two instructors, four assistants (who had been through the class) and up to 16 students. This meant, for certain exercises where the students waited in line for their turn to perform a particular evolution -- say, the strainer swim and the zip-line crossing, we could split the class into two section, each with an instructor and two safety-boaters, so the students wouldn't have to wait so long in line. Essentially, we had an 8:1 student:instructor ratio (or better) and an 8:3 student:rescuer ratio (or better). [1] Bob and I spent so much time in Jeff's classes because we were just pushing our way up to Class IV and (in Bob's case -- he was a kayaker) Class V, without mentors, and driving all up and down the coast probing for ourselves things like Section IV, the Watauga, and the Bottom Moose. The thing abour S&R skills -- any skills, for that matter -- is that if you don't practice, you forget, and by good fortune or good judgement, we never got realtime practice from serious situations on the river. So we kept going to Jeff's classes so that we would be sharp if anything *did* occur. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA .. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net .. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll .. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu .. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== Larry C wrote: I'll have to disagree with this statement. From my experience, the great majority of ACA certified instructors are "outdoor professionals", camp counselors, guides, heads of school outdoor programs, etc. I know that CCC has a very strong volunteer ACA training program, but outside of that I think you will find that most ACA instuctors have monetary reasons to maintain the training and the insurance. It's surprising how many of the SWR instructor candidates take the course and never teach. Larry Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. ?Given that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport, as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those skills. [1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every paddler will learn? ?How twisted is that? ?ACA oughta be giving FREE memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified then give up the time to teach safety and rescue. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Winston-Salem, NC, USA . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . ? ? Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Well, Steve, I assure you, FWIW: when I coordinated a GCA trip last
Fall, ***I*** was an "officious busybody". wrote: I never have understood the PA deal. Georgia Canoeing Association is an affilitate. We use ACA insurance for races and instruction, and our trips are waivered Common Adventurer events with a "Trip Coordinator," who may or may not be an "officious busybody." Atlanta Kayakers, on the other hand, has trip "hosts" who suggest a venue; that's the extent of their administration. No waivers, no insurance, no officers, no dues, no bylaws, just a web site and paddling events. Steve |
ACA Paddle America Clubs
Do you expect me to be surprised at that news? ;) I'm sorry i missed
that trip. On Nov 2, 10:29 am, "Oci-One Kanubi" wrote: Well, Steve, I assure you, FWIW: when I coordinated a GCA trip last Fall, ***I*** was an "officious busybody". Steve Non-Certified Officious Busybody |
ACA Paddle America Clubs, "Common Adventure Model"
Brian Nystrom wrote:
[...] Most of the other clubs in our area have eschewed membership in the ACA PAC program and just go it alone. They rely on the principles of the "Common Adventure Model" for liability protection. To date AFAIK, none of the clubs or their members have been sued for anything that has happened at any of their club functions, trips, etc., primarily because their safety record is exemplary, as is ours. With the cost of insurance going through the roof, I suspect that CAM is the wave of the future. [...] So is this "Common Adventure Model" a legal concept or document or what? Thanks. |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:22 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com